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mark
19th February 2001, 07:54
I have found limited info on this species, I'm looking for pics and general info, anything would be appreciated. Thanks in advance!

nimbus2
19th February 2001, 17:03
Paramesotriton deloustali is critically endangered and considered possibly extinct by some herpetologists. Its last few refuges were apparently polluted by the construction of a hotel at Tam Dao. As far as I know, nobody has seen them since. Some Europeans claim to be keeping these, and maybe they are. But it seems unlikely. True P. deloustali was only found in a few highland waters in Vietnam.

brian
20th February 2001, 02:06
There is a guy named Rehak, from Czechoslovakia I believe, who kept, bred, and wrote several articles on deloustali. I have a copy of one of the papers if you're interested...anyway, I saw some of Henk's photos of deloustali at IAD and it is a remarkable animal. Bulky paramesotriton with a heavy looking Pachytriton type tail, much bulkier than a caudopunctatus. neat...

mark
25th February 2001, 21:47
I'm interested, if you could go ahead and mail it to me that'd be great.

ryan
19th June 2001, 23:46
Brian, do you think you could email me a copy of those paper. I'd be interested in knowing about P. deloustali. Thanks for your help.

Ryan

ryan
3rd July 2001, 14:12
There are about 5 pictures of P. deloustali on AmphibiaWeb. It is an unbelievable animal!! If you haven't seen these pictures yet you should really have a look.

Ryan

john
3rd July 2001, 14:22
Here's a link to the photos on Amphibia web (http://elib.cs.berkeley.edu/cgi-bin/amphib_query?rel-genus=like&upper-genus=1&upper-species=1&upper-common_name=1&rel-species=like&rel-common_name=like&rel-family=equals&rel-order=equals&rel-isocc=like&max=20&where-genus=Paramesotriton&where-species=deloustali&where-common_name=&where-family=any&where-order=any&where-isocc=any).

ed
3rd July 2001, 19:17
That's a very unusual looking animal. I've seen alot of different types of paramesos, but I don't recall ever seeing one quite like that. Reminds of a cross between a caudopunctatus and a chinensis or something similiar.

gustavo
13th June 2002, 21:55
HELLO NIMBUS 2 P.DELOUSTALI IS NOT EXTICT AT THE MOMENT BUT NOW THE AREA IS PLENTY OF NEW HOTELS AND KARAOKES AND THE NEW RICH PEOPLE FROM VIETNAM USING THE AREA FOR GO THE WEEKENDS,AND IS PLENTY OF TRASH.

nate
14th June 2002, 19:43
Gustavo, what's with the capitol letters? It's a bit like shouting.

steve
16th June 2002, 18:13
My LFS gets alot of the Paramesotriton species. Ive posted picturesof the few I had before here:

http://www.caudata.org/forum/messages/8/694.html?1020470546

of course THEY are NOT the deloustali BUT the other day at the fish store I seen about 2-3 left and i almost want to recheck them because I think one of the bellys resembled the photo here:

http://elib.cs.berkeley.edu/imgs/512x768/1111_1111/1111/0556.jpeg

BUT don't know.

Is there any TIPS you guys can give to "LOOK FOR" when I recheck the LFS again at this newt?


let me know

steve

chris
9th November 2002, 16:16
which species of paramesotriton are these two, and does anyone have any females of the appropriate species?
http://www.caudata.org/forum/clipart/your_image.gif
PS. The newt at the top has a faint, blue sheen on tail, newt at bottom has vivid, solid strip of electric blue on tail.

chris
9th November 2002, 16:25
Sorry, could not upload image file.

kai
11th November 2002, 12:13
Steve, the belly pattern is pretty variable in most Paramesotriton. Head shape is more valuable for identification.

tj
14th November 2002, 09:04
I find it helpful to have all available info in one place for easy reference (esp. when there is little info available!)

Great that we now have a P. deloustali dialogue going here. Here's my initial contribution.
http://www.caudata.org/forum/clipart/talker.gif

First, some excerpts from a Birdlife International report entitled [Sourcebook of Existing and Proposed Protected Areas in Vietnam] (updated as of 20/02/01) and posted on the website of the Wild Bird Society of Japan at:

http://www.wing-wbsj.or.jp/~vietnam/source_book/sb_pdf/Tam_Dao.pdf

"One of the most notable species to occur at Tam Dao National Park is Vietnamese Salamander Paramesotriton deloustali, a globally threatened species, endemic to northern Vietnam."

"The Vietnamese Salamander population is threatened by habitat loss, collection for the pet trade (this species can be found on sale at Dong Xuan market in Hanoi) and pollution of the streams in which the species lives. Many of these threats are directly associated with the development of tourism in the national park."

The report cites a 1993 report in Vietnamese by the Forest Inventory and Planning Institute in Hanoi entitled [Investment plan for Tam Dao National Park]

By the way, I have been to this market, Hanoi's largest, numerous times but have only ever seen Tylotriton on sale there. Never been to Tam Dao though...

Tim

tj
14th November 2002, 09:41
Another more recent and detailed Birdlife report suggests the possible existence of P.deloustali at another location in northern Vietnam.

http://www.wing-wbsj.or.jp/~vietnam/pdf/reportVBan.pdf

Entitled [A Rapid Field Survey of Van Ban District, Lao Cai Province, Vietnam] and released last April, it has the following references:

"Three reptile species and one amphibian species recorded during the survey are listed in the Red Data Book of Vietnam...Of these species, P. cf. deloustali, is also listed in the 2000 IUCN Red List of Threatened Species (IUCN 2000) as vulnerable."

"Specimens of a salamander were collected from rivers and broad streams around Na Nheo village, at elevations between 600 and 900 m asl, and from a broad stream in lower montane evergreen forest at 1,000 m asl. All salamanders observed during the survey were in forested watercourses, in pools with sandy substrates and relatively gentle currents. The specimens were provisionally identified as Vietnamese Salamander Paramesotriton deloustali, although further studies are required to confirm this identification. P. deloustali is known only from northern Vietnam. Prior to this survey, the only confirmed records of this species were from north-eastern Vietnam, including from Tam Dao National Park and from Ba Be National Park and surrounding areas. The records from Van Ban district, if confirmed as P. deloustali, would be the first records of this species to the west of the Red River, and would significantly extend its known distribution."

"Further studies are required to evaluate the importance of Van Ban district for the conservation of Paramesotriton deloustali, to investigate its distribution and ecology, to identify threats, and to propose appropriate conservation measures."

Lao Cai, in the northwestern part of the country, is one of several provinces situated on the border with China. It's #2 on this map, while Vinh Phu, home to Tam Dao, is #10.

http://www.kinchandassociates.com/vietnam/maps/MAPS~1.HTML

It'd be interesting if anybody knows whether the specimens collected were subsequently confirmed to be P.deloustali...

Tim

kai
14th November 2002, 10:23
Chao anh Tim,

good idea. There are good breeding efforts with deloustali in Europe (I'd suggest to start a studbook) - the specimens originated from earlier imports to former East Germany and commercial imports during the early 90's. Since this species got protected status in Viet Nam there seem to have been only few illegal exports. I haven't heard of any but if you know what happens with turtles all across Asia (or rather worldwide) to keep Chinese consumers happy, it is clear that smuggling some deloustali will be done, too, if anybody is ready to pay the price. Happily, demand seems to be low and should be possible to be met with captive bred offspring.

Aside from deloustali-like Paramesotriton in the Red River basin, there certainly is at least another species (probably guangxiensis, but also another or several species are possible) in northernmost Viet Nam (Cao Bang/Lang Son, especially drainages belonging to the Pearl River basin). I've visited Cao Bang but wasn't successful at finding any caudates (wrong season) in the short time available.

Much work needs to be done on Vietnamese caudates and dedicated exploration is badly needed in river basins S and W of the Red River (in VN and Laos)...

Best wishes,
kai

tj
14th November 2002, 10:46
And there is this even more recent Birdlife report showing even wider distribution.

http://www.wing-wbsj.or.jp/~vietnam/pdf/reportHG.pdf

[A Rapid Field Survey of Xin Man and Yen Minh Districts, Ha Giang Province, Vietnam]

Issued last August, it says:

"During the rapid field survey...the most interesting finding was a population of Vietnamese Salamander Paramesotriton deloustali in Xin Man district. Voucher specimens were collected, identified by herpetologists at the Institute of Ecology and Biological Resources (IEBR) and Fauna and Flora International (FFI), and stored at the zoological museum at IEBR."

"On 17 May 2002, four Vietnamese Salamanders were collected in two different streams near Ban Xe village, Na Chi commune, Xin Man district. One specimen was collected at an elevation of 1,000 m asl, while the other three were collected at an elevation of 900 m asl. The colouration of the underside of the first specimen was brighter than that of the other three, and was determined to be a female by the herpetologists at IEBR."

"Vietnamese Salamander is listed in the 2000 IUCN Red List of Threatened Species (IUCN 2000) as vulnerable, and in the Red Data Book of Vietnam...as endangered. In addition, exploitation and utilisation of this species are strictly prohibited in Vietnam, following Decree No. 18/HDBT, dated 17 January 1992.

"Vietnamese Salamander is endemic to northern Vietnam, and its distribution includes Vinh Phuc, Thai Nguyen, Tuyen Quang, Bac Can, Lao Cai and Yen Bai provinces. The species often inhabits pools in streams, 0.5 to 1 m in depth, where stream flow is slow and the stream bed has a substrate of sand or stones. The breeding season of this species is from December to April."

"These records of Vietnamese Salamander, extend the known distribution of this endemic species, and, also, highlight the significance of natural freshwater habitats in Xin Man district for biodiversity conservation."

Ha Giang also borders China and is #3 on the above-linked map (which seems to be missing a couple of provinces...)

tj
14th November 2002, 10:51
And there is this even more recent Birdlife report showing even wider distribution.

http://www.wing-wbsj.or.jp/~vietnam/pdf/reportHG.pdf

[A Rapid Field Survey of Xin Man and Yen Minh Districts, Ha Giang Province, Vietnam]

Issued last August, it says:

"During the rapid field survey...the most interesting finding was a population of Vietnamese Salamander Paramesotriton deloustali in Xin Man district. Voucher specimens were collected, identified by herpetologists at the Institute of Ecology and Biological Resources (IEBR) and Fauna and Flora International (FFI), and stored at the zoological museum at IEBR."

"On 17 May 2002, four Vietnamese Salamanders were collected in two different streams near Ban Xe village, Na Chi commune, Xin Man district. One specimen was collected at an elevation of 1,000 m asl, while the other three were collected at an elevation of 900 m asl. The colouration of the underside of the first specimen was brighter than that of the other three, and was determined to be a female by the herpetologists at IEBR."

"Vietnamese Salamander is listed in the 2000 IUCN Red List of Threatened Species (IUCN 2000) as vulnerable, and in the Red Data Book of Vietnam...as endangered. In addition, exploitation and utilisation of this species are strictly prohibited in Vietnam, following Decree No. 18/HDBT, dated 17 January 1992.

"Vietnamese Salamander is endemic to northern Vietnam, and its distribution includes Vinh Phuc, Thai Nguyen, Tuyen Quang, Bac Can, Lao Cai and Yen Bai provinces. The species often inhabits pools in streams, 0.5 to 1 m in depth, where stream flow is slow and the stream bed has a substrate of sand or stones. The breeding season of this species is from December to April."

"These records of Vietnamese Salamander, extend the known distribution of this endemic species, and, also, highlight the significance of natural freshwater habitats in Xin Man district for biodiversity conservation."

Ha Giang also borders China and is #3 on the above-linked map (which seems to be missing a couple of provinces...)

tj
14th November 2002, 11:00
And there is this even more recent Birdlife report showing even wider distribution.

http://www.wing-wbsj.or.jp/~vietnam/pdf/reportHG.pdf

[A Rapid Field Survey of Xin Man and Yen Minh Districts, Ha Giang Province, Vietnam]

Issued last August, it says:

"During the rapid field survey...the most interesting finding was a population of Vietnamese Salamander Paramesotriton deloustali in Xin Man district. Voucher specimens were collected, identified by herpetologists at the Institute of Ecology and Biological Resources (IEBR) and Fauna and Flora International (FFI), and stored at the zoological museum at IEBR."

"On 17 May 2002, four Vietnamese Salamanders were collected in two different streams near Ban Xe village, Na Chi commune, Xin Man district. One specimen was collected at an elevation of 1,000 m asl, while the other three were collected at an elevation of 900 m asl. The colouration of the underside of the first specimen was brighter than that of the other three, and was determined to be a female by the herpetologists at IEBR."

"Vietnamese Salamander is listed in the 2000 IUCN Red List of Threatened Species (IUCN 2000) as vulnerable, and in the Red Data Book of Vietnam...as endangered. In addition, exploitation and utilisation of this species are strictly prohibited in Vietnam, following Decree No. 18/HDBT, dated 17 January 1992.

"Vietnamese Salamander is endemic to northern Vietnam, and its distribution includes Vinh Phuc, Thai Nguyen, Tuyen Quang, Bac Can, Lao Cai and Yen Bai provinces. The species often inhabits pools in streams, 0.5 to 1 m in depth, where stream flow is slow and the stream bed has a substrate of sand or stones. The breeding season of this species is from December to April."

"These records of Vietnamese Salamander, extend the known distribution of this endemic species, and, also, highlight the significance of natural freshwater habitats in Xin Man district for biodiversity conservation."

Ha Giang also borders China and is #3 on the above-linked map (which seems to be missing a couple of provinces...)

tj
14th November 2002, 11:10
chao anh to you too!
oops, sorry about the repeat posts
maybe John can delete them along with this...

henk
20th November 2002, 00:06
Just to tell you that overhere in Belgium, Henri Janssens has bred and kept the species. He currently still holds 24 of his 3 year old juveniles + a parental group of 3 adults. He aims to breed more in the next 2 years. However his animals are not for sale (so don't get your hopes up) but kept for studying them

Henri is somewhat the most devoted Paremesotriton specialist in the field and has kept and bred the genus for over 25 years now.

kei
30th November 2002, 16:18
I saw some Tam Dao newts around in Tam Dao on a Japanese TV show today. They are not extinct so far. They live in mountain stream and have very red belly.

nate
30th November 2002, 20:05
For what it's worth, I have kept some Paramesotriton from American pet stores which look EXACTLY like the Tam Dao warty newt pictured in National Geographic Magazine's feature on the Tam Dao Preserve. It makes me think that deloustali can also be found in China.

lane
30th November 2002, 21:35
I too have kept these, however, the belly pattern is quite different from that of the deloustali shown on AmphibiaWeb. Excluding belly patterns, the two look identical and one could easily be mistook for the other. Just makes me wonder which is the true deloustali.

kei
1st December 2002, 04:53
Hi Nate, which issue of National Geographic Magazine?

TJ
1st December 2002, 07:12
If it's found in Vietnamese provinces along the Chinese border, then I also reckon it'd be found in China as the geography in that area is pretty similar (or at least looks so from the air, lots of limestone outcroppings).

Lane, did you see the WC belly pattern pics at the above link? This one:

http://www.wing-wbsj.or.jp/~vietnam/pdf/reportHG.pdf

Kei, did you by any chance record the program? I checked the program's website at http://www.tbs.co.jp/f-hakken/ but they had no pics or other deloustali-related info posted there. If you're also in Tokyo, pls let me know!

Here's a pic of a deloustali from the Mergus Terrarien Atlas for comparison:

http://www.caudata.org/forum/messages/13/1753.jpg

TJ
1st December 2002, 09:43
I just looked it up and the National Geographic issue is as follows:

Tam Dao--Sanctuary Under Siege
Vietnam's Tam Dao Reserve
Date: June 1999
Pages: 82-97

TJ
1st December 2002, 09:46
Kei, it's also in the June 1999 Japanese edition, pages 120-135 http://www.caudata.org/forum/clipart/happy.gif

ralf
4th March 2003, 23:06
Hi all,
some information on the current status of Paramesotriton deloustali I want to share. This is based on an article in the German elaphe magazine by Harald Martens (in German:“Am Typus-Fundort von Paramesotriton deloustali“ elaphe 11 (2003) Heft 1 pp.55-59) as well as infos given by the author himself.
On a field trip to the terra typica of P. deloustali at Tam Dao (Vietnam) in August 2001, the author (who was accompanied by the Vietnamese herpetologist TRUONG) was able to confirm the persisting occurrence of this species in the vicinity of the village.
One locality where the animals were found (two females with total lengths of 15 respectively 17 cm) was a small pool near a hydropower plant, occupying an area of approx. 10 square meters and a maximum depth of 1 m. The pool was shaded by banana foliage, the bottom was covered with leaves and rocks (Conductivity 36 mS/cm, pH 6, water temp. 20 deg. Celsius). Other animals encountered in this pool were Racophorus-tadpoles as well as small snakes of the genus Amphiesma.
According to a local guide, eggs and larvae of this species can be encountered during the dry season (February and March) in similar water bodies. According to Harald Martens a lot of local people believe that this newt (called Ca Coc, which means „toad-fish“) is a live bearer since only morphed juveniles are encountered regularly.
According to TRUONG P. deloustali has a wider area of occurrence than just Tam Dao. It ranges approx. 60 km from Tam Dao in the Southeast to Tay Thien and up to Hop Hoa in the Northwest. The animals only occur south of the mountain range at elevations of 200 to 900 m above sea level. However, also 350 km north of Tam Dao animals, presumably belonging to Paramesotriton, were caught in the National Reserve of Bac Be.
One major threat for the animals is the ongoing trade with wildcaught animals despite of the official protected status of this species. Animals are often offered to/ bought by weekend vacationers (at approx. 3 Euros respectively US-Dollars) especially at the tourist centers of Tam Dao and Tay Thien. Because of the unsuccessful method of maintaining the animals by feeding them rice, there is a constant demand for these „good luck charms“.