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mike
17th March 2005, 01:26
While perusing a Dentrobatid orientated site which advertises "Everything Amphibian" I noticed in the Caudata section an advert for :
"Algerian fire salamanders, Salamandra algira tingitana, Captive bred juveniles.
Rarely offered species, Large juveniles and adults develop a lovely reddish colour surrounding the yellow blotches on the cheeks, parotid glands and the dorsum."
While this statement is true for S.algira and some populations of S.a.tingitana, these particular animals are most definitely bred from animals collected at Cudia Adru, Morocco. This population shows NO red colouration.
The accompanying image is most interesting, showing red colouration developing around the head and body....a crude "Photoshop type" effect.

Poetic licence?

sergé
17th March 2005, 07:18
Well, that's a shame with traders, they don't care about the original origin of animals and so neglect to tell it to the buyers.
Without getting to technical I must say that genetically the Cudia Adru animals are tingitana, but they do not fit the typical 'tingitana'description (no juvipary but larvae, no reduction in coloration/melanism) but they are truly interesting creatures.
You probably know who bred them, but they are very rare.
The picture added by the trader are definitely photoshopped...which says a lot about their what they consider important (how to sell an animal) instead of focusing on the rareness of this particular form. ...why don't they sell animals Salamandra algira's which do show red (most of the Moroccan populations do...).

william
17th March 2005, 08:38
i often look at this site to see what they have to offer, i would never noticed that if you hadn't pointed it out!

and to add something else, they are recently selling 8 "C/B" ambystoma opacum! in January i bought a pair of ambystoma opacum from another batch which were also marked as C/B when i went down to collect them, i asked a few questions, after being tipped of that they were probably not C/B, and they told me that they were W/C, now that's even worse. i do know that the people who own the website frequent this site, i wonder if they would like to say anything in their defense....?!

francesco
17th March 2005, 08:46
what's the name of this site?

mike
17th March 2005, 08:58
http://www.dartfrog.co.uk/

paris
17th March 2005, 09:10
yeah that pic is pretty lame...

sergé
17th March 2005, 10:58
Think we had some discussions before on these people, no?? That's one reason we started testimonials.
I hate traders (especially the ones that say they are hobbiest but in fact are just in it for the money), because normal ones you know that they have no knowledge.

mike
17th March 2005, 12:46
Yes there was a discussion a while ago Serge' but the Testimonials section is now:
"The place to post info about good deals with people who are a credit to the hobby and companies that deal fairly".

TJ
17th March 2005, 13:01
We can only go on what our suppliers are telling us with regards to a) whether they are captive bred or not and b) what a particular species/subspecies is. I would welcome what anyone thinks the algira subspecies is as 3 of the 4 do have tinges of red on it parotid glands.
I questioned my supplier and they maintain that the A.opacum are captive bred and having seen last years juveniles they were only 3cm in length so I assume they must either be c/b or collected as larvae. Those on the site are what are left from last year and are around 6cm now.
And yes I am a hobbyist as well as a trader. I have been keeping darts for over 10 years and have a passion for them which has taken me all over the world.

william
17th March 2005, 13:46
but what about the opacum from the last batch? it clearly stated that they were c/b, but i was told that they were w/c, how can you explain that one? if you've done it before, what's to say that you will not do it again?

http://www.cadata.org/forum/messages/985/1870.html?1040518576

(Message edited by will_j on March 17, 2005)

william
17th March 2005, 13:57
http://www.caudata.org/forum/messages/985/1870.html

sorry, try this one,

edward
18th March 2005, 16:32
Mike,
Is there any chance the coloration would be due to feeding the larva astaxanthin laced food? That would account for the reddish color without the application of paintbrush.... I'm asking because there is some reddish tint in the other yellow spots but the blurriness around the head makes me suspicious.

Ed

(Message edited by Ed on March 18, 2005)

mike
18th March 2005, 18:01
Yes Ed,
What I described as an "orangy flush in the centre of their yellow markings" is caused by feeding daphnia and bloodworm primarily.
The colour and blurring around the head is another story.

sergé
21st March 2005, 11:36
Red coloration is Salamandra has nothing to do with food, except for the phenomenon Mike talks about, but that will not stay over the long run. Besides that there are also red forms in which all yellow spots are orange or red. But this is a genetic thing, like albinism or flavism. We talk here (in case of this photo shop because else why would it be blur?) is a red coloration besides the yellow as seen in Salamandra algira and Salamandra salamandra subspecies like gallaica and morenica. One of my personal researches is development of colour patterns in Salamandra.
A first short review has been published in 2002.
S. BOGAERTS, 2002. Farbkleidentwicklung bei einigen Feuersalamanderarten und –unterarten. AMPHIBIA 1: 4-10. (Individual recognition and Pattern development of some 'Salamandra' species and subspecies).

mark
2nd October 2005, 17:56
i emailed the owner of this site to queery the images and he did not deny the fact they were tampered with but told me the pics had come from his supplier any how the images are now updated hopefully showing a more accurate version of what customers to this site would expect
mark