Pics of new tennants...Siren intermedia

ok, i am trying out the cam here with additional light, these wont be as good as a full fledged digital camera photos, and i still dont have a flash, but they should be ok-i ran them through photoshop to clean them up....... first here is a pic of the 55 tank i have them in, i have 9 total siren intermedia and i believe at least 2 gravid fems.



and no the heat light fixture isnt part of it-i was using that as a supplimental light source to try to get less grainy photos-you guys will be the judges. next here i have a few pics of head shots of some of my room mates (they are at the foot of my bed)









here is a siren gulping air, you can see belly scars from the fighting they do to each other-i only have one w/o these scars



i thought at first there was no way these "nibblers" with their keratinised mouths could do so much damage just from biting-it must be the 'aligator barrel roll' that inflicts their wounds, ive had them nibble lightly on my fingers and didnt think it was enough for their damage...but then i decided to hand feed them (in the hope of making them less skittish about me)beefheart. all i can say is 'ouch'-yes they can bite if they want to and do decent damage with out spinning a chunk of flesh of me!

here is a small pic (is not good enough to make big)of one of the ones i believe is gravid



here are 2 pics of sirens with their hands showing the finger tips-take note of them, i had asked nate before if they were keritinised (or however it is spelled) because if you hold one it will scrabble at you with these hands and you can FEEL it! and the tips are black and appear sharp-i just cant get a really good pic of this



...doesnt he look like he has teeth??



and here is a pic of my dead one-it was ALOT easier to get a clear shot of this one...somehow it appeared they knew their pics werre being taken cause none of them would stay still-and they had been fed so you'd think they'd be all full and sluggish....needless to say these pics took some time and i hope you like them.

ok, dead siren pic note hands again...





and finally here is one i saved for last...i felt it was a bit, ..um suggestive......

Hi Paris,
Males bite other sirens so the one without the bite marks is probably a male. The ones with bite marks are either other males on his turf or females. There hasn't been any published data on if biting is part of the courtship in these guys (although biting was not observed in Pseudobranchus) or is a result of a nonbreeding female getting in the male's territory.
They can bite and remove each others limbs which is why most people do not keep them in groups and just like most other aquatic salamanders they will eat their own eggs.
Otherwise those are some pretty good pics, much better than I have been able to do at work and I've been trying off and on for several months now.
Ed

Thanks for your time and patience taking the photos for us, Paris! Neat animals. Watch those fingers. Would you mind if some of the photos found their way to Caudata Culture?

yeah jen, go for it-whats the point of taking pics if you cant share them. ....ed i may need to separate them in the future, dick mentioned they will take off each others limbs, and i do have some already with new bites. these are currently small ones, every one is less than a foot and one is about 7 inches. i have seen no proof of egg laying since i put them in the tank, i am wondering if they are like c popei and will lay more if you feed them more-that is why i got the beefheart, im hoping to fatten them up. there are plenty of plants in the set up-so i was hoping for eggs since they had laid 4 overnight in a tupperware dish they were all in when i first got them...i am wondering if i should isolate the one i think is female to see if i AM getting eggs and just missing them.

Perfect pictures Paris,

I keep my fingers crossed for your off-spring

Uwe

The genus Siren from the literature tend to lay their eggs in clutchs as opposed to Cynops where you get a small number laid daily over a period of time.
I know is is possible to get multiple clutches a year in Pseudobranchus when the conditions are correct and I believe that this would be the same for Siren however I do not know what the correct cues for your Siren would be.
The only problem with seperating them would be, no reproduction. If they are like Pseudobranchus, females that are ready to breed (and I mean like that day) may look to be thicker in the cloacal area (and I'm not sure this isn't just my imagination) but this is the only external sign that I have ever seen for possibly sexing them.
The problem may be that we are not keeping them in large enough enclosures to allow for the male to have his turf while allowing the other animals to avoid the male. Some of the subspecies do orient themselves spatially when the populations are dense enough.
I had problems with them biteing each other when keeping two of them together in an enclosure with a floor space of about 30 inches wide by 48 inches long by 12 inches deep.
Ed

an update-i have taken to hand feeding to tame them up and must have taken well to it. my insight to these animals in the few weeks i have kept them is that their FAVORITE thing to eat is FOOD! they seem to like everything, but they are limited on goldfish to the dead ones, they cant seem to catch them. i have offered them wardly's TEN turtle food, they go nuts for beefheart and live crickets(also handed to them) the DOWN side to this is that when i put my hands into the water they immediatly come over to see me and start nibbling(not hard but they are eager), they will now allow me to catch them by hand to raise them up to water level to vet them-but they pretty much expect a treat and start nibbling about my hands for their treat.

Hi Paris,
I would limit the dead gold fish for two reasons
1) dead goldfish are high in thiaminase and can cause thiamine deficency
2) goldfish are high in cholesterol and saturated fats. If you can get them use shiners or at least frozen thawed smelt )thiamine can be supplemented in a different food item at least 30 minutes before or after the frozen/thawed fish.
The lesser sirens at work do not seem to bother live fish very much (in contrast to the greater sirens) and I even have guppies that I keep in with the lesser sirens as colonies to feed to other animals.
Try a small dead pink on them, just tear the skin a little bit and they will suck them down like candy (very useful to administer thiammine) or if you have one that goes off food (It will happen, the ones at work cycle down in the winter).
Ed

i wouldnt normally use goldfish since i know they cant catch them but i had a bag full for the pipasand there were alot of dead ones in it so i tried it out on them. i also had a crayfish in the bag of goldies-the person at the pet store didnt feel like fishing it out so she didnt charge me for it. i thought the pipas might like it but they didnt touch it , even after it keeled over-so i threw that in the siren tank too. the big one i think is a female went for it like a rocket, tore it up all over the tank and played keep away with the others, bit by bit she consumed the whole thing. they liked the froze mysis shrimp i gave them omce, but those are tiny and i am not sure they are fresh water shrimp. i know i can get ghost shrimp but i am not sure they can catch them alive. how much harm you think it would do to offer them krill or even shrimp from the grocery store-seeing as these are saltwater crustations? is there any real issue ir is it just percieved in feeding salt water feeders to fresh water sals? on the subject of pinkies, arent they also high in fat and cholesterol?

Hi Paris,
The surinam toads can have the same problems with the goldfish....
Yes, pinks are high in saturated fats but this can be lowered by offering them pinks that have absorbed the milk (normally a couple of hours) but I have one at work that will refuse all other food items for up three months at a time if I would let it. (It will lose about 20% of its body weight before it will resume feeding on its normal diet (earth worms) unless I start offering it pinks).
Mysid shrimp are usually freshwater shrimp collected from deep lakes (there are salt water versions but I am not aware that they have made it into the pet food trade yet).
Crayfish are part of their natural diet in the wild so that reaction is not surprising.
I think that as long as the krill or shrimp are rinsed it will be fine (although shrimp also contain some cholesterol).
I've fed krill to Typhlonectes for long periods of time with no ill effects and these guys are very sensitive to water quality problems (unlike Siren which can burrow in the mud and estivate).
Ed

MUST GET SIRENS!!!!!!!now i want some really bad

did someone wish for a sirens???? just how many would one like??? contact me at newworldpioneer@netzero.net I breed them and have many for sale

you so quick to judge some one you have never met
or know anything about.Ever creature on this site originated from the wild and more than likely was purchased from some one. I've seen several of beautiful sirens that were purchased from me. Apparently you don't know how to reproduced them and you don't want to buy them from me.What other choice do you have?I have a good reputation for the sale of healthy captive bred lessor siren.I am here to stay and ignoring me is going to be a full time job.

ok im not saying that what u are doing is wrong. i dont know were the animals are coming from. i hope they are captive bred, and i hope that you are trating them humanely. But mike does make a valid point. Your posting here that you are selling sirens is inapropriate. post in the for sale/orto give away forum.

I see a person on this page thats begging for them I just trying to help I have'nt listed any prices I just offered answers.

As to your claims of captive breeding, how are you breeding them?
Can you describe the courtship display?

Ed

No I don't think you're naive...I'll admit that there are some corrections that are needing to be made on my site.It's new and the person that I have helping me with it has confused a couple of their names and is working on that.And as for the toad,do you have a sense of humer?It is supposed to be funny and not taken seriouse.On the other hand I do take my sirens very serious.And find it very offensive that you claim otherwise.I have done a lot of research on my sirens.I have always loved fishing.That is probably the only reason I even know what a siren is.I was probably 8 when I caught my first one.I doubt you were even born yet.And then it was probably about 8 or 9 years later before I was to ever get lucky enough to get another one.I have read articals about fishing with them it would have otherwise never crossed my mind.I would never peirce one of these creatures with a hook or anything for that matter.I did have a couple fishermen contact me wanting to get very large quanities and would have payed well for them but but I refused to lower my price to make it feasible for them to be used as a fish bait.If they were wild caught and I didn't care about them and I'm only trying to make a buck.Then I would have givin this guy as many as he wanted and took the money.I also had Fear Factor contact me for some and guess what I turned them down too.Like I said the sirens that I sold were bought as pets.And I am sure of that.And please don't put a siren in the refrigerator,I never said that.
Now hopefully you may have learned something about me.If you have anymore question please feel free to ask and I am sure you'll find that I'm not the terrible person that you are trying so desperately to make me out to be.

WEll if you are well meaning could you please post how you are breeding youre animals and pictures as well. also showing us how you keep them might be a good idea. Im not taking sides here is jsut whant some proof, i mean if you are going to talk the talkyou have to walk the walk. You have to understand that ther are alot of people with shady intentions that offer animals on the internet. These people sometimes scam other people or keep animals in terrible conditions, carolina biologicals is one of these places. and by the way it doesnt matter if you show prices if you are ofering animals you HAVE to post on the advertisement forum, im a bit surprised that john hasnt done anything.

This is a hobby and nothing more.How can you read that and not laugh?For the second time,don't you have any sense of humar?And why do you keep saying that I said put them in the refrigerator?I never said that.I would own up to it with no problem if I had said that, but you're making that up.It would be too cold for them in the refrigerator.
You all just down talk me and make your accusations.And then you think I would be naive enough to show you pic's so that you can see how I do it or maybe get some clues on what seems to be such a mystery to you.I haven't got anything to hide and I don't have to tell you everything I know to prove it either.
A friend told me about you all I didn't have to come here and defend myself to you.But it seems that you totally misunderstood me and my intentions and I wanted to set the record straight.You believe everything that the ad says,and nothing that I say.What is wrong with you?You know that what I am saying is making sense and that ad was supposed to be ignorant proof.Do you get it now???I really wasn't trying to sell them as pet food!!!Or bait!!!If you still don't understand please let me know and I will try to spell it out for you even simpler if I can.You all must be the only people who believed that and thought that I was really trying to sell pet food.Now that's pretty funny.I'm still laughing.Still not done!OK! What do you think everybody was just going crazy all wanting this new pet food?Do you hear how stupid that sounds?You have my word no one ever bought one from me to feed it to their pet.I am sure of that.You should learn to laugh and have fun.Don't be so serious all the time.And trust people.

As my post got buried. In what manner do you captive breed the sirens?

Ed