Notophthalmus viridenscens louisianensis--Central Newt

My neighbors drained their recreational fishing pond, and my boys rescued six aquatic cuties that looked like salamanders. With the help of John Woods at http://hometown.aol.com/jwcaudata64/index.html, I was able to identify them as newts--specifically as Notophthalmus viridenscens louisianensis.

We would add the newts to our pond, but the sides of the pond are very steep; it is 14 feet deep; there is no vegetation along the banks or in the water, and it is filled with very hungry young fish. So for now, the best option for the little critters is if we maintain the colony in an aquarium.

I need to do more homework to sex them, but at first glance with my limited knowledge, they appear to be five males and one female. One of the males and the single female are the largest of the group.

Right now, my quickie emergency set-up is in a ten gallon reptile tank with a screen lid. I put gravel on one side and sloped it down in the middle of the tank. I left one side of the tank where the swimming area is clear of gravel so my feeder worms can't hide. I added three inches of tap water (which is soft water here), treated for chlorine, heavy metals & ammonia, adjusted pH to 7.0. I connected an air pump tube and buried the tube on the gravel slope in the water. In summary, very shallow, no lights, no heat, no filter, and no plants.

I bought some very tiny red wiggler fishing worms, and they've been eating them.

Now I've come here and started reading. Some of you are so experienced (one woman I read about in the forums just lost an eastern she's had for 20...count 'em...20 years!). Seeing people like that here, I think I'm at the right site. I'm hoping some of you can help me with what to do now.

Is it ok to keep all of the newts together in this 10 gallon tank? What else do they need in there to mimic their natural habitat? Are these newts totally aquatic? Or do I need to set up a half and half tank?

I know they can't take strong currents. I'd purchased an external power filter (which I didn't set up because of the need to keep the newts in shallow water until I could figure out what they need). Will this power filter be too strong a current at the exit, or too much suction at the intake? If I use an under-gravel filter, then the power heads will blow tons of air bubbles. What is the filtering system that's best for this colony?

What do I feed them for variety in their diet, and where do I get the supplies? All I have on hand at the moment are tiny red wiggler worms. I bought a vial of brine shrimp eggs, but don't know what to use to hatch them. More homework on that. Do I gut load pin crickets with reptile/amphibian vitamins? I gut-load large crickets and coat them with vitamin powder before feeding my geckos, which live on land.

If I fill the aquarium all the way with water so I can get some sort of filter going, do I just add some floating plants for the newts to cling to close to the surface. Some of them still have the nubs of their gills left, but the three larger ones are definitely surfacing to sip air.

Any tips on keeping my little colony going safe and happy would be appreciated.

Can any of you provide info. or links to sites with info. on the life stages and breeding of these newts? I think I need more females than just the one. How do I tell if they are breeding age and ready for breeding? Are there temperature changes I need to mimic in the tank? I have a lot to learn in order to help them.

Oh...and how do you photograph them in the tank so well? All of the pictures I've seen have been so helpful. I'd like to know how to photograph mine so clearly.

Katie

Hi Katie, glad you found this forum and you're definitely in the right place . You've certainly got a lot of questions...there's a caresheet for this species at:

http://www.caudata.org/cc/species/Notophthalmus/N_viridescens.shtml

That should be able to answer a lot of your questions. If you still have specific questions after that we'll take it from there.

Thanks so much for the help, Nate. I'm in the process today of figuring out how to do this half and half tank since it appears I have a colony all in different life stages.

Sorry for having so many questions. I hope others learn from my questions too. I figure it can't hurt to ask.

What I've learned as of today, and what I'm trying to figure out...

Life Stages of Notophthalmus viridescens louisianensis: two small ones have gill nubs and stay in the water--still aquatic larva? Two other small ones swim and sip air from the surface, but they also visit the "land area", even climb the glass wall. Are these efts? The big male is totally aquatic. The big female is totally aquatic, but likes to sit in the shallows. Both of them sip air from the surface. If they are large and totally aquatic, that makes them adults?

All of the colony members are different colorations. The smaller ones are reddish in color. The ones that visit the land are very brown. The large ones are more greenish brown.

Sexing: I think one of the smaller ones may be another female, which would be great. One way that you can sex them appears to be by examining their back legs? The males' legs are very thick with black toe tips. Two of mine don't have legs like that. Their back legs match their front legs. So I'm hoping I have two females. I'll be able to view their cloacas for the male's "yellowish gland on the posterior portion of the cloaca" once I have the tank set up with a deeper water area. I don't want to handle them or scoop net them to look. I worry about hurting or stressing them.

Tank Setup: Now that I notice them as seeming to be in different life stages, I guess I need to do the half and half tank. My question about that is how do you keep the land area clean and from fouling the water area? I noticed one tank in the photos just used some large rocks to anchor driftwood that rises up out the water with live plants all around. If I surround the wood with floating plants and damp moss to provide a humid swampy area at the surface...that looks easier to maintain just with biological filtration than the glass partition type tanks with an actual separate land area.

Filtration: The power filter I got doesn't have a flow control...so I'm off to exchange that. What kind of filtration do you recommend? Under-gravel or exterior power filter with flow control?

Aeration: Do I still need to provide separate aeration with either the under-gravel or the power filter? I read where too much air bubble action is bad for newts. So what's the best aeration method?

Plants & lighting: As for using live plants in the tank, is natural light near a window ok? Do Notophthalmus viridescens louisianensis like certain plants? As in...floating or rooted...small round leaves or long fine leaves? Are they picky when it comes to plants for egg laying?

Feeding: I found instructions for easy homemade brine shrimp hatcheries online. I'll attempt to hatch some for my little friends. For now, their diet will continue to be very small red wiggler fishing worms that I got out of the local live bait vending machine.

How often do you feed, and how much?

If you use under-gravel filtration, where do you feed to keep the food items from ending up lost in the gravel and fouling the water as they decay?

Lastly...I'd like to find other people with this species to network with.

I'm so thankful for all of you being here. This site is a great "one-stop shop" that's saved me from having to hunt all over the place. The quicker I can find the info. I need, the quicker I can give my colony what it needs to survive. You folks are wonderful for providing the quick information I've needed. Thank you!

Katie, I agree - you seem to have a colony in all different life stages. That's pretty neat. The ones with small gill nubs are probably neotenic young adults (adults that are retaining some characteristics of larvae). Your tank setup idea sounds fine - if the land area is made of rocks or driftwood, it's easy to clean.

Not many people here have N. v. louisanensis, but many people, including nate and I, have experience with various stages of Notophthalmus (other subspecies).

Do not bother to hatch out brine shrimp eggs - they are too small as food for any of your colony. Maybe you can buy adult brine shrimp at a pet shop. The worms are the best food, though. You may have to chop the worms for the smaller ones.

If you have gravel, use only a thin layer so it's easy to clean out excess food. Any plants are fine.

I would recommend either a corner filter or small submersible. Airation in addition to the filter is not generally necessary. See filter article below.

Here are some pages that will answer some of your other questions. Good luck!
http://www.caudata.org/cc/faq/faq.shtml
http://www.caudata.org/cc/articles/filters.shtml

Ok Katie, sounds like you got most of your questions answered so I'll try to hit the other questions you still have.

Life Stages: The animals with gill nubs are probably still larvae if they are much smaller than the adults (approximately 5cm or under). They could be neotenic sub-adults as well. The two animals that use the land area are not efts unless they still have the orange to orange-brown color characteristic of efts. Adults are not always aquatic either, and it's not uncommon for them to use the land area for extended periods of time. Confusing eh?

Sexing: Don't forget that young males will likely not have the black toe tips, but will still have larger hind limbs. Netting won't stress them, they're not really that fragile. You just don't want to be doing it all the time.

Tank Setup: Your ideas of the floating wood sound fine. As long as you don't have efts (which you don't seem to), it won't be a problem at all.

Filtration: That's up to you...I try to use UG filters and a small internal power filter of some sort (like Duettos) for pond species like Notophthalmus.

Aeration: Like Jen said, you don't have to have aeration for them. If you choose to have a UG filter, the aeration provided for it will be just fine.

Plants: I dunno how well window lighting works, I've never tried it. Maybe someone else here knows. Generally, Notos like any plants, the more plants the better. I just pile in the floating plants...duckweed, hornwort, Anacharis, java ferns, java moss, whatever.

Feeding: Like Jen said, brine shrimp are useless now for their size. The red wigglers may be not be eaten because some have defense chemicals and some newts spit them back out. If that is not the case with your worms, then great. Chopped nightcrawler is also very much appreciated and usually found at baitshops.

Again, like Jen said, very few people are keeping this particular subspecies, but lots of people are keeping other subspecies. The care for all of the subspecies is essentially identical. May I ask where you're located? State and County is all I'm interested in, because the two smaller ones you mentioned might be neotenic and I find that sort of info very valuable. As far as I know, neotenic louisianensis are known only from the gulf states and southern Illinois.

Regarding window light - in summer any strong sunlight will heat the tank. Heat and newts don't mix.

Jennifer,

Thanks for the response and links.

Feeding : I'm almost relieved to hear I don't have to figure out brine shrimp! I'll check at the local Pet Not-So-Smart for adults. Worms are enough? They don't need a varied diet?

I'll read up at those links.

Nate,

So glad I didn't have to wait days to hear something back. Thanks for hanging out here.

Life Stages : Yup...Confusious confused...but intrigued. I'll observe them more and read up on that. If I can swing a decent picture, I'll post one at the site. Maybe you can confirm the life stages for me. I'll let you know if I manage that.

Sexing : I noticed the strange hind legs. Hard to miss those (thanks, Mother Nature). Now I don't have to lift the tiny critters up and check under the hood for extra parts.

Tank Setup: Searching for info. on how to treat driftwood so it doesn't leach tannin and other noxious stuff.

Filtration: Thanks for the tips. I'll take it all in and sort it out...hopefully reach a good conclusion.

Aeration: Great news...can give the air pump to my begging son and enjoy my music without the sound of tiny bubbles perking.

Plants: Can't wait to get them. I loved keeping a water garden landscape in an aquarium years ago. This part will be fun, and I know it will make the newts happy.

Feeding: I noticed one of the newts spit a worm back out after working to swallow it completely, but I figured the newt ate one that was too large and didn't like the way it wriggled inside its tummy. The red wigglers are awfully smelly as worms go...must be that defense chemical you mentioned. I noticed the newts do an awful lot of "sniffing" before they decide whether to pounce on one. I'll check out the night crawlers. I'd gotten the r. w.'s because of how small they were.

Light & Temperature: We've had a few 30 degree zappers; so, they've been indoors in a room with lots of indirect natural light. I keep the house cool; so, they've had water temps equal to mild winter here--mid 60's. I was trying to match what I'd taken them from as much as possible (minus the crushing bulldozers and mud soup for water).

I have a protected place to put them outdoors once it warms up--where they won't get the direct light or harsh temp changes. It gets quite hot here in the summers. I thought the natural temp. gradients and light changes would do them well if I could keep the ranges minimal.

Once I get them completely set up, I'll let you know how they're doing.

Thanks for all the generous help.

~Moi

(Message edited by katiegatie on February 04, 2004)

FEEDING UPDATE: I got an undergravel filter, and when I removed the gravel to install the filter, I rinsed the gravel. What did I find? ...All the red wigglers I'd watched the newts swallow...hidden in the gravel, still alive after being eaten, tossed back up, and a week in water. I'd continued to feed those to them because they ate them like they loved them. So the newts definitely at some point spit them all out. Tough little worms to live through all that, ain't they? Now I know the newts are verrrrrry hungry, and I'm off to find something else to feed them. They ate those red wigglers like they loved them, but I guess not! I'd noticed the worms were really smelly for worms...and oily. I guess that's the defense chemical.

FILTER: Nate, why the submersible power filter in addition to the UG? I got an UG to avoid a strong current, and the airstones on the air tubes in the riser columns provide extra aeration (which I think? is a good thing). I have a gravel vacuum (all those dropped hornwort leaves...sigh). Wouldn't the submersible heat the water? And cause a current? And don't the live plants need some things to filter to the roots in the gravel rather than all be picked up by a filter?

PLANTS: I'm reading about live plants and they say UG isn't good for the ones rooted in the substrate. Do you find live plants do OK with the UG?

Do any of the water treatments that remove chlorine, heavy metals, ammonia and such hurt plants? I noticed the pH product I bought didn't say it on the outer packaging, but did on the inside...so got to return that, and glad I didn't use it before I read the package. I'm hoping what I used didn't do this to the plants.

Do you feed the plants at all...like add iron? Would this be harmful to the newts? Or is the tank waste sufficient for plants to thrive?

LIGHT:
With live plants, what kind of lighting do you use with a small ten gallon tank to avoid heating it up? I found anacharus and hornwort. The hornwort is dropping leaves really bad, and the anacharus doesn't look very green and perky anymore. I also added a pot of bacopa monnieri yesterday. I'm off to get lighting now.

Other than the tank problems, and worrying about how the new tank cycling is going, the newts look great. The small males are filling out nicely (which I don't understand with all the red wigglers they spit back out), and the large male looks like a small dinosaur stomping around. He's a real beaut. The two females seem to prefer to sit near the surface in the plants, and looking at them, they look...well...more streamlined and feminine with really cute tummies.

The boys informed me that they saw hundreds of newts trying to escape the pond when it was being drained and bulldozed, and they weren't able to reach more than these six. They tried, sank waist deep in thick mud, and got stuck; so they gave up. That explains their clothing that day. I keep going back to walk on the shore in the heavy cold rains we've had, hoping I'll find some newts who escaped or were trapped in puddles...searching for clean water. I've seen none out there. I tried to get close to the remaining muddy puddles to check, but like the boys, couldn't get past the mud drop-offs. I'm saddened to think of the huge beautiful community that died off.

If the newts we saved will breed, maybe once the pond is re-established, I can re-introduce a population. That pond had thickly planted shallows where the newts seemed to thrive. Hopefully, they will keep the same shore design, and just deepen the center.

BREEDING: How do you maintain a lower water temperature to encourage courting?

Hi Katie, here we go:

Filter: I prefer to use a submersible with a UG for extra filtration, simple as that. Yes, a submersible can add a couple degrees F to the water temp. As long as the temps aren't too high, it's not an issue. I keep submersibles in my tanks and the water is still 58F right now. Yes, they do add a current, but the current is often adjustable and can be diffused by objects in the tank such as rocks. I have kept lousianensis with this moderate current long-term with no problems. I don't understand your roots/filter question.

Plants: Yeah, some plants don't do as well with UG. It's a matter of experimentation. Why are you worried about the pH? My plants do fine with no fertilization/food other than normal tank waste. However, there is far too much variation in filters and bio-loads among tanks to make any sweeping generalizations that plants do or do not need additional food.

Light: Make sure you're using a fluorescent hood and not an incandescent hood. The incandescent hood puts off a lot of heat and isn't as good for the plant growth.

Breeding: I personally leave a room unheated for lowering the temperature, even leaving a window open at night to drop the temps. Some people use basements.

FEEDING: I found some frozen cubes of vitamin-enriched bloodworms. I fed them last night, and they loved them. It took a while for the females to descend from their plant towers to the substrate and join in the feast, but they eventually did.

I'm going to nestle some sort of heavy dish in the substrate and use it as a feeding site from now on. The leftovers went everywhere, and of course, worked into the substrate once I turned the UG on again.

BREEDING: Apparently, the need for food was all it took for something to start. I'm not sure what, but the behaviours in the tank changed drastically after they'd all eaten like pigs.

Before, the large male stomped around the bottom with those huge muscular back legs of his looking like a stern little dinosaur surveying his kingdom. The younger males would alternate between clustering in a corner on the bottom, and hovering around like Macy's Day balloons. They remind me of the group of fellas that hang together at a dance and are too shy to ask anyone for a date.

The females stayed tucked near the surface in the plants like two little divas who just couldn't be bothered with mingling. None of them interacted with each other, other than the young males seeming to stay together.

Last night: water temp was 70 F due to the lights being on longer so I could feed. Lights were on so I could observe them eat. I noticed that when any newt would see another walking around, it would approach face-on, and they would put their noses together and stand that way a moment...then go off about their business. It seemed to be some sort of...greeting...or smelling for scent? Also, the females came down to eat after the others settled down. They still stayed each to herself.

At one point, the big female saw the large male, and acted like she wanted to approach and touch noses. Whenever the big female would walk up to the large male, he would snap at her at the last second, and she'd dart away. She would come back to him and act like she wanted to touch noses...and stay jumpy and ready to dart away any time he moved at all like she expected a bite. If he didn't snap, she'd approach a little more. Eventually, he would snap again before she could get to touch, and she'd quickly swim off. She never got to touch noses with him. All of the others would touch noses, even with the large male. He only snapped at the large female.

Today: Water temp this morning was 68 F. The females have come down to the bottom off and on, and the big male stomps over to them. He undulates his entire body and tail, and if I look closely, it looks like his cloaca is open and thread-like things are exposed. Eventually the female will suddenly dart away from him. He doesn't display any of the black toe tips or black markings on the undersides of his legs. He did have the toe tips when we first caught the newts. Even so, it appears things are beginning.

LIGHTING: Is using general flourescent bulbs just as good as the plant bulbs?

Thanks for the help. I really appreciate it.

Update:

BREEDING: Last night, I was surprised to see the large male suddenly decide to breed with the smaller of the two females. It was quite a shocking show. I think I'll have to put curtains on the tank if they do that when I have company...or heck...I'll sell tickets.

Water temp. was 70 degrees F. I had been thinking of saving water from the water changes and freezing it into large blocks. I wanted to float a block to keep the temps cooler to promote courting. Apparently, this was unnecessary.

I'm wondering how soon after breeding do the females lay the eggs, and if they continue to breed, or do so only once before laying. I'll have to dig around the site and see.

PROBLEM-Escaped newt? All of the newts appeared to be completely aquatic. I set the tank up totally aquatic for now while I search for the perfect driftwood to create an island. The three young males still had a tiny bit of gill nub on each cheek. Last night, I noticed that one of them seems to be missing. I'm worried now that he may have become a land form and found his way out of the tank through an opening near the gangway valves. Hopefully not, but I can't find him. I'll have to figure out how to close the gap in case the other two follow suit.

SETUP: I put an under-gravel filter. Ultimately, I'm saving up to get a reversable power head to make it a reverse flow under gravel system. This will minimize debris building up in the gravel, and it will provide more oxygen in the gravel bed for the beneficial bacteria. For now, it's the usual.

I added a little box filter that you stick on the inside wall and run an airtube through. This provides some minor mechanical filtration.

I sloped some smaller rounded gravel high in back, low in front...so most of any leaf debris works its way to the front for vacuuming.

I planted java fern, red ludwegia, fanwort, hornwort, bacopa...all in an arch to mask the air tubing in back. Too lazy to grab the scientific names right now. I added some aquatic plant food that's safe for animals. The plants have perked up immensely.

I'm going to stop using the Amquel because it locks up the plant nutrients too. I got some stuff to treat JUST for chlorine, chloramine and heavy metals. I'm hoping it won't lock up the iron the plants need.

I left the front center clear and sank a plastic stone looking dish...buried the sides with gravel and weighted it with a few quartz stones. It wants to float otherwise.

I use this little dish for placing food, but the newts do scatter some of it outside the edges when they swim. I use a turkey baster to get the uneaten stuff out after feeding is over.

FEEDING: The bloodworms are a huge success, but I find the females will only get to eat once all the males leave. The males chase them off.

So all in all, they are eating, shedding and breeding...and growing. So I guess the little critters are on their way.

PHOTOS: I used my picture cell phone to get some snaps of them feeding and swimming...and a series when they bred. I'm going to post them in a webshots album in case anyone wants to look at them. I'll come post the link when it's done.

Thanks everyone, for all the help and support. You are all great.

This is the link to the photos I took of my newts:

http://community.webshots.com/user/katiebythegate

They are divided into three albums: feeding, breeding series, and some misc. swimming photos.

Webshots didn't load the breeding photo series in order; so, if you want to see them in order, right click the photos, save them to your computer, and sort them by name.

You'll notice in some of the swimming series that one of the small males is very dark brown compared to the others.

Let me know what you think!

~Moi

Katie, thanks for the update, you are doing well with them. Regarding the escape, it could certainly have climbed out even if it still has gill nubs. I use black electrical tape to seal small openings. Larger openings get Saran wrap and black tape. The electrical tape works well because it doesn't look too bad and it comes off without leaving a sticky mess (at least if it's taken off within a year or so).

I'm hoping once I have the driftwood "island" built, they have a place they are attracted to besides climbing on the glass. None of them has climbed at all...so I'm just shocked.

I keep looking and hoping the missing newt is just too camouflaged to see in the tank, but no such luck. I fed last night...definitely only five now.

I kept hoping I'd see it somewhere outside the tank and be able to save it. I don't know where a wet newt would run to in a house at night. Surely he's dead by now. I guess eventually, I'll find a little dried up newt somewhere strange...sigh...

By the way...can you recommend a source for java moss? If I can't find any, I figure I'll wrap thick blankets of Anacharis or hornwort around the driftwood to create a swampy "shore" area.

I also need to take a hacksaw to my uplift tubes and shorten them so I can lower the water level to allow for the terrestrial effect around the driftwood.

Will my arms ever be dry again?

(Message edited by katiegatie on February 26, 2004)

By the way...I noticed that if you view the breeding series as a slideshow at the webshots site, it presents the photos in order.

Hornwort always falls apart on me. You should try phoning some aquarium specialty stores for java moss. I get it from a place called Big Al's, and I think they have US locations.

Hey, I get why yours are breeding!It was robably cause it was a lot cooler in the pond than in your house, so the temperature change induced them to spawn! AmI right? Im new at this too, so im trying to figure this all out.

By the way you described it up there it sounded like you had at least six newts...That seems like an awful lot for a ten gallon tank...

I didnt read the network part earlier...I have been keeping easterns for like 7 mos. now...Im not experienced but if you ever need help....My email is kurt_bert_claudio@hotmail.com...