Species question

[s1ren]

I was wondering if anyone more knowledgeable than myself could tell me exactly which kind of Pleurodeles I have.

I have had a m/f pair for about four years now; at first I thought they were juvenile P. waltl , but in four years they haven't grown any - they're both about 2.5" long. All the info I can find online for pleurodeles says that all three kinds grow to be 8-12" long.

I don't have a picture; but they look exactly like the pictures I've seen of p. nebulosus - no orange spots on the sides. But...they're small.

[katie]

Is there anyway you can get a picture? maybe borrow a friends camera or somethin....That would help a great deal.

I dont know too much about the species, so i cant help you on what you have said...sorry!!!

[al]

I'm curious, where did you get your pleuros from? What diet do they like and are they ravenous feeders?
I've kept P. walt and sometimes you get a juvenile that develop slowly. Males have a tendency to grow at a slower rate than females.
When you say 2.5 inches, is that total length or body length?
It would be odd if they are any species other than P. waltl.

[s1ren]

Al:
I got them from a local shop here in Austin.

I feed them a combination of live redworms (red wigglers, I think - compost worms) and beefheart. They are very ravenous - I had trouble with aggression at feeding time the first year, but they're much more calm now that I feed them more often. In fact, I've recently started feeding them in a bowl inside the tank, so I can keep better track of how much they're actually consuming - and they LOVE the bowl. Triton, the male, will flip the bowl over looking for more when it's gone, hehe. http://www.caudata.org/forum/clipart/happy.gif

They're 2.5" total, from nose to tail. So, are you saying that they're just slow growers, and WILL in fact get bigger eventually?

Katie:
I will definitely try to get pictures. I actually have several from my digital camera. The problem is that the gravel in the tank is of such a similar color to the animals, that you almost can't see them. I keep trying to get pictures of them on the plants for contrast http://www.caudata.org/forum/clipart/happy.gif

ETA: Last summer they bred like crazy, too, but none of the eggs I pulled out of the tank survived - they all molded after a few days. I'm really hoping they'll do it again this year - I'd love some more :D

(Message edited by s1ren on February 14, 2006)

[jennifer]

I've seen P. waltl that maxed out at around 4 inches, but <3 inches would be quite unusual. Pictures would be great!http://www.caudata.org/forum/clipart/happy.gif

[jeffrey]

Hi S1ren

You do not mention how big their accommodation is.

They can be stunted too. I have a pair that came in a 18" x 12" tank they were moved into a 36"x12" and easily doubled in size in only a few months. They were 1 year old when I bought them.

Regards Jeff

[s1ren]

I keep them in a 20g-long tank, by themselves. You know, when I bought them there were TEN crammed into a little plastic Kritter Keeper that only held about 4 cups of water! I wonder if that stunted them?

Anyway, I finally managed to get some good pics - here you go: (just for scale - the gravel at the bottom is composed of pieces about 1/4-1/2"; and the leaves on that plastic plant are like an inch long each):
http://www.caudata.org/forum/messages/13/53873.jpg

That's Triton (the male) up top by the plant, and Steve (female)down near the chunk of rose quartz at the bottom.

I have lots more photos, too - I'll post them in the photo album http://www.caudata.org/forum/clipart/happy.gif

ETA: temp is 74ºF in the tank - a little on the warm side from where my other two tanks are (70-72º).

(Message edited by s1ren on February 15, 2006)

(Message edited by s1ren on February 15, 2006)

[jeff]

they are p.waltl for sure, I bet they will grow in time

[s1ren]

Wow.

So...I guess I didn't realize they grow THAT slowly! They've been this size for nearly four years, as I said.

I suppose that means I'll have plenty of time to think about a bigger home for them http://www.caudata.org/forum/clipart/happy.gif

Thanks for all your help, you guys http://www.caudata.org/forum/clipart/bowl.gif

[s1ren]

This whole discussion makes me think of another question: this pair breeds like crazy - I got like seven batches of eggs over the past summer...but none of them ever hatched.

Could that be because they're small? Maybe too young to produce "good" eggs, or something?

[aki]

S1ren: Your Pleuros are so small because their enclosure is definitely too small for that amount of specimens. In fact, I wouldn't keep any Pleuros in a enclosure that size at all, and would keep even couple of Pleuros at least a three times larger enclosure, and I actually even have had. When I had my own Pleuros about few years ago, they grew up to 20 cm long each and even rather quickly when accommodated in a very large tank. Very same situation happened with the Pleuros of my friend too and his specimens grew up even larger than the specimens of mine when keeping in a tank with holding capacity of 350 litres (I am too tired and lazy to count any gallons right now...). I have to admit that sometimes I remain thinking why so many hobbyist in USA are keeping almost every amphibians in such a small containers as usually been informed and notified by hobbyists from USA, thus usually everything is big in USA. Don't you have room space enough while you have largest appartments and houses in the world? http://www.caudata.org/forum/clipart/smile9.gif (btw, it was a joke...) Most of skandinavian hobbyists think that size of the enclosure like S1rens Pleuro-container is extreme minumum for (max) two Cynops orientalis which are, however, remarkably much smaller (mayby one of the smallest among common captive newts) than Pleurodeles waltl...

In fact, here in Finland, we have even recommendation laws for the minimum sizes of enclosure for captive animals and for example, it is illegal here to keep e.g. any fish in smaller tank than 40 litres. Actually, as I have understood, it is now illegal even sell smaller aquariums (e.g. gold fish bowls) than that for contemporary accommodation for vertebrates. Laboratory animals, guarantee containers and so on are different cases and separated from this practice of course... In the real life, it is sure that nobody can actually control or monitor that policy here either but the community of hobby here is quite small, intense and closed and everyone is watching "brotherhoodly" after each others in a sense of proper caring and culturing conditions of the specimens of this interest. It would be difficult for us to keep any amphibians in a smaller container than is expected to be a minimum here for some spesific species without any debate or notes from more experienced enthusiasts...

I agree with Jeffrey that the size of enclosure affects a lot and does really matter, what comes with the final size of naturally rather large caudata species like this. As you should know, Pleurodeles waltl is definitely biggest newt species in whole Europe.

And as you already mentioned, your specimens seem to be sexually mature ones and unfortunately, huge development boost in their size is scarcely not expected in your case anymore. In my opinion, they are not too young to breed and as regards that contents of two last post of yours, you unfortunately have misunderstood the situation. Considering the case of your newts and their age you mentioned above, they should be much bigger in their length and weight at present. So you actually don't have any time to think about bigger tank but you should have had that bigger tank already a few years ago.

However, what is done is done, and I still recommend you to invest for a bigger enclosure as soon as possible. Not because of possible growth of newts, which is unlikely at least in a noteworthy sense, but because of the health and well-being of your newts for now on and in the future...

PS. I really have to regret my poor and disordered English for the native speakers, ones again, but I just have nothing but a blur in my head right now when it's 4:15 a.m. in here -sorry http://www.caudata.org/forum/clipart/sad.gif


(Message edited by Aki_Suzuki on February 24, 2006)

[joan]

I don't think a 20 long is too small for 2 P. waltl. Especially P. waltl as small as hers. And I think 2 C. orientalis would be utterly lost in a 20 long.

[aki]

So is this some kind of misunderstanding behalf of me? I have understood that S1ren is talking about 20 gallon tank? So expected situation when two different worlds with two different methods for measuring things are facing each other... http://www.caudata.org/forum/clipart/blush.gif

My apologize...

PS. even so, you mentioned: "...especially as small as hers..." Yes, but those are not juveniles anymore, don't you think? In my opinion, they are seriously left behind from their usual development rates.


(Message edited by Aki_Suzuki on February 24, 2006)

[joan]

A 20 long is 20 gallons, but it is 36x12x12 inches, the exact same dimensions as the one Jeffery mentioned. If the newts were stunted before she got them, and she has provided them with a large setup, and they have not grown, that's not her fault.

I have 2 20longs set up right now. One has 3 large ambystomatids, and one has 4 large Triturus. I think two 3inch pleuros in a 20 gallon tank is quite adequate.

[mark]

What’s frustrating is that 20 US gallons means nothing to anyone outside of the US. In the UK we’re fortunate because many people think in both imperial and metric measurements. The US gallon is a grey area because our gallons are bigger. The rest of Europe doesn’t stand a chance – they don’t even know what an inch is! Litres and cm is what you need if you want to be truly international…

PS. I keep 5 adults in a tank that size – no problem.

[s1ren]

Gee, a whole argument on my behalf (joking! http://www.caudata.org/forum/clipart/smile6.gif)

Joan is right, that 20g-long is not the same as a regular 20g tank - it's three feet long, whereas my Pleuros are about 3" long each.

I think they have plenty of room for now, but rest assured that I WILL be moving them into a larger home - I already have a 40g-long tank in my garage set aside for them to live in, I just haven't gotten around to building a stand for it just yet. I hope to have that done by the end of the Spring (my other hobbies coincide: I'm in the middle of building raised beds for my vegetable garden AND refinishing an antique desk - as soon as I have room to work in my garage, I'll be building all new stands for all of my tanks).

Interestingly enough, I went back and checked the journals I keep about my tanks; from back when I got these little guys...I guess I hadn't realized it, since they're growing very slowly, but they HAVE actually grown a whole inch since I got them! YAY! They are 3 full inches right now, and when I got them they were just under 2". Progress! http://www.caudata.org/forum/clipart/bowl.gif

Thank you both for being so concerned - one of the reasons that I *love* this community forum, is that everyone here genuinely cares about these animals. It's wonderful http://www.caudata.org/forum/clipart/happy.gif

[edward]

I have Pleuros in 20 gallon longs at work that have grown exceptionally well and while not giants are large adults (easily in the 20 cm + range). They do well enough to spawn at least a couple of times a year.

On to the spatial requirements that get tossed around a lot, I have seen and heard a lot of what is considered to be appropriate (or even mandatory) over the years but when you look into the reasons why there is often simply opinion on why that is the minimum required size.

Ed

[s1ren]

Sure - and that's great information to have. Different things work for different people and situations; you can read caresheets all day long, but so often the most invaluable information is anecdotal and based on experience and personal preference. Part of what makes this place a fantastic resource http://www.caudata.org/forum/clipart/happy.gif

[al]

I agree. Tank volume is useful for fish, but for caudates it is surface area. I have found most tanks with the hight of 12 inches is adequate. The the length and width are key. Most commercial tanks in the US are 12 inches wide.
I acquired a couple of really cool tanks that were cut down. I have a 23 gallon Long that is 36x12x12 and a 33 gallon long 48x12x12. These have proven an excellent use of space. The 20 gallon Long 30x12x12 is a great standard tank, and I have 9 of those. A 15 gallon 24x12x12 is also a good small tank for a small colony or for small bodied newts.
Every species is different and will require different space considerations depending on aggression or territorial behavior.
And on course water quality is whole other topic, but is impacted by tank biomass or number animals per setup. You will know when you have the right balance in any setup, when the animals are thriving, the water quality is easily maintained with little effort, and the setup is maintain for long period of time. I've kept some small bodied newts in a setup with no filtration, plant choked, no artificial light, near a south facing window. They reproduced and appeared to thrive. This seems to work with pond type newts.