Yellow parts on Paramesotriton larvae

timo · Mar 5, 2007

Dear caudate colleagues,

I was very fascinated by Paul’s successful P. laoensis breeding attempt. Especially that the larvae are all black without yellow parts.

I know that P. deloustali, P. caudopunctatus and P. hongkongensis have these yellow elements (tail-ridges, gills & around the eyes and nostrils/upper lip).

So my question is, does anybody know if the larvae of P. fuzhongensis, P. guangxiensis and P. chinensis have this coloration as well? Or even better, does anyone know a paper reporting the larval traits of any of these species?

Best wishes
Timo

ralf · Mar 5, 2007

From my experience P. fuzhongensis-larvae also possess the typical Paramesotriton - colouration.

jennifer · Mar 6, 2007

I have raised P. caudopunctatus larvae - they also have the typical Paramesotriton yellow/black larvae.

paul · Mar 8, 2007

Hi Timo,

P. guangxiensis is close to P. fuzhongensis and P. deloustali. I think nobody breed them until now!

For chinensis look here:
http://www.geocities.co.jp/HeartLand/3108/herpetarium/captivity/capt-P-chinensis.html

Not a good photo but it seems that the larva has yellow parts on the tail, but not on the gills.

Paul

TJ · Mar 9, 2007

Hi Paul.

The caption in Japanese says that the P. chinensis larva has two sets of lines consisting of yellow dots on each side of its body. This can easily be seen if you copy the photo, enlarge it and then enhance it. I can't post that enhanced photo here without permission but I've e-mailed it to you (and to you too Ralf & Jen...but sorry Timo, I don't have your email address). The caption for the photo of the morphs points out that yellow dots can be seen at the junction where the leg meets the body -- something that distinguishes this species from other Paramesotriton. I can see them...can you?

(Message edited by tj on March 09, 2007)

timo · Mar 9, 2007

Hi Tim and Paul,

there are definitely yellow dots on upper side of the morph's forelegs!!! I can see them, too

As far as I know it's not mentioned in the literature ?!!?!
I've also enlarged the photo of the larvae and I see two lateral rows of yellow dots! The upper one nearly at the same place, as the dorsolateral ridges of adult Paramesotriton. That's interesting, because chinensis' ridges aren't very prominent. Perhaps the yellow lines are a larval feature.

Anyone there who knows about P. fuzhongensis larvae?

Thanks a lot so far!

@Tim: the document about Amphibians of Hongkong is nearly an exact copy of Myers and Leviton ('62)

paul · Mar 9, 2007

Hi Timo!
<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>Quoting Timo Hartmann on Friday 09 March 2007 - 19:34 (#POST123958):

Anyone there who knows about P. fuzhongensis larvae? <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

Read the second post! Ralf already wrote

Paul

timo · Mar 10, 2007

UUUps!

Sorry Ralf!

jennifer · Mar 10, 2007

Timo, what is the final summary? If I am reading correctly... all Paramesotriton larvae have "typical" coloration (black with yellow gills/noses), except chinensis and laoensis. Did I miss anything?

paul · Mar 11, 2007

@Jennifer, my result is - all Paramesotriton (from which we know it) have yellow parts on its body, except laoensis.
But chinensis did not have yellow gills/noses!

Paul

timo · Mar 11, 2007

Hi Jennifer,

as far as I see you've not missed anything. But I'm still not absolutely sure about chinensis, because the picture is very bad.

Conclusion: I think Paul is right. Laoensis is the big exception! It's all black larvae are another hint for its special position in the genus.

Timo

paul · Mar 12, 2007

Hi,
this link:
http://www.livingunderworld.org/caudata/database/salamandridae/paramesotriton/paramesotriton.pdf

says that "larvae of P.chinensis are uniform black, including the gills and feet."

Paul

TJ · Mar 13, 2007

Here's the initial larva photo posted at:

http://www.geocities.co.jp/HeartLand/3108/herpetarium/captivity/capt-P-chinensis.html

...and after enlargement, enhancement:

== photos used with permission kindly granted by site owner ==

(Message edited by TJ on March 13, 2007)

timo · Mar 13, 2007

Hi Tim,

thanks for the enlarged photo. But I'm still not sure if it's really that much useful. Because I can't say if the distal gill-elements are yellow, brown or just a little bit brighter than the rest.
BUT: As far as I see this larva doesn't fit the description which is given in Paul's linked pdf-doc anyway. Because it's definitely not uniform black (the already mentioned lateral yellow rows).

So the question is, who is wrong? Jessica J. Miller or Dr. Grumman? Or is there some kind of variation in chinensis larvae?!

I really don't know...

Timo

paul · Mar 13, 2007

Hi Timo,

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>Quoting Timo Hartmann on Tuesday 13 March 2007 - 08:54 (#POST124352):

So the question is, who is wrong? Jessica J. Miller or Dr. Grumman? Or is there some kind of variation in chinensis larvae?! <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
and the next question - What is chinensis?
One species, a lot of subspecies or different species?

Paul

TJ · Mar 15, 2007

I've since received from Dr. Grumman the original photo, which when enhanced looks like this:

paul · Mar 16, 2007

Hi Tim,

with this photo, there is no doubt that it has two sets of lines consisting of yellow dots on each side

And it seems, that it also has yellow parts around its tail.

Paul

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