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Newbies seeking help - floating & deformed gills

M

mel

Guest
Hi everyone, we are new members and relative novices in the Axo game. We axo-napped Bubbles from the school where she'd been a pet for 8 years or so. We found her in a tub with 5 inches of water and one rock. The water hadn't been changed for months and she had no filter - so it was green. In addition, her frills had been chewed off (the teachers said) by snails or fish. In the last 18 months since we've had her, she has adjusted to her better conditions, but her frills have not grown back, and in fact, one has quite a mutant looking growth on it. Her feathers have been slowly growing back on one side, but not the fleshy, extended frills. We are wondering if these should have grown back and, if so, could she possibly have a parasite or infection?

Also, we've had some really hot weather here lately and the water temp got up to 24 degrees. We've followed advice to get it down slowly and steadily using ice bottles. Coinciding with this, Bubbles began to float (uncontrollably) bum-up. Her front feet were on the bottom of the tank, but her back feet were at a 45 degree angle and it was preventing her from swimming up to gulp air. When she did try, she almost tumbled. Being the clever little thing she is, she parked herself under her filter or in her ceramic tunnel and now that the water temp is dropping, so too are her tail and legs. Has anyone else experienced this?

Thanks in anticipation of your help - (& thanks to our friend C who put us on to this site - its fantastic!)
 

sherrisixxx

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Hi Mel and Tony! I am a newbie to Axi game as well,but already really love my axie Axelina! And she had exactly the same floating problem over christmas that Bubbles seems to be having now!Her front paws were on the ground abut her bum, tail, baglegs etc high up in the air, like she was walking on her hands. Also she was very bloated, over the double the normal size.But am glad to say she is back to normal now! She had an airbubble trapped in her tummy, caused by either wrong food or stress. I didn't feed her at all for a few days. but massaged her tummy gently 2-3 times a day, to get the air moving. Even after only 2 massages she did an enormous poo! And after more massages she managed to poo more and get the air out of her tummy.After 3 days she was back to normal. I hope this helps, and am sure somebody more experienced can help you with the other problems
 
J

joan

Guest
Mel and Toni: Welcome! We're glad to have you here!

The gills will probably not grow longer again. Adult axolotls usually do not regrow lost gill length. If they were chewed off by a snail or fish, they could be sort of lumpy. If you could post a pic, I'm sure someone will be happy to tell you whether it's normal or not. If it looks like the rest of the gill-flesh, but is just misshapened, then it's probably just a weird growth.

The bum-float is usually due to warm weather and the need to take a poo. If the floating is stressing your axolotl, put it in the fridge for a few hours, and it will probably poo. Sherri recommends massages, but I don't really recommend them as if you don't know what you're doing, you may end up doing more damage (skin, internal organs, bones), and I don't think it's necessary to massage them to get them to poo. Just keep her cool and she should poo 3 or 4 days after a meal.
 
M

mel

Guest
Hi Joan and Sherri,

thanks so much for replying and for your wisdom. We are quite apprehensive about touching Bubbles, so will probably take the fridge recommendation - especially as we have extraordinarily hot weather forecast for the next few days and it has been very hot for quite a few days now already.

Right now things are looking so much better - we've been able to gradually drop the temp of her water and maintain it at about 16 - 18C for the last 48 hours and her back legs have gradually dropped and she is looking more relaxed. We can't tell if she has pooed because we're not sure what to look for? She ate a fish last night for the first time in 6 days.

We'll keep working to maintain the water temp, but I am keen to put her in the fridge on Saturday as it is going to be 38C and we are going out of town for new year's eve. Do you think that would be ok? I've read lots of other information about fridge temps and we're going to check ours tonight, but can you tell me, if we do put her in the fridge, does she need to have a lid over her container? I read some horror stories about axies going awol from their temporary containers and would hate to find her going bush in the vegetable crisper!

Once again, thanks for the wisdom.
 
M

mel

Guest
Oh dear! Just as I was posting this Toni told me that her rear end has risen again. It's not as bad as it was, and she still does look more relaxed, but still...
 
J

joan

Guest
16-18C is a good temperature. If you can't maintain it, go for the fridge. A good pic of axie poo can be found in this thread http://www.caudata.org/forum/messages/793/50417.html?1135652722
But poo tends to disintegrate pretty quickly, and will look like brown dust over your substrate.

If you put her in the fridge, most people feel more comfortable with a lid, so the axolotl can't jump out. I also find they're more relaxed if I wrap a towel around their containers (all of mine are clear), so the light doesn't startle them when I open the fridge.

If you're feeding fish as a staple, I'd recommend not doing it. Unless you're raising your own fish from disease-free stock, they're probably loaded with parasites, and tend to nibble on gills and toes. A safer and more nutritious diet would consist of earthworms, salmon pellets, bloodworms, occasional crickets, or other soft-bodied 'worms'. Avoid mealworms, as their tough jaws can injure axolotls and their chitinous exoskeleton can be hard to digest.
 
C

christina

Guest
Hi Mel and Toni - good that you found your way here...it's a great site and there are so many people with a wealth of knowledge.

If you are putting Bubbles in the fridge, tape the light down so it stays off - the light going on and off can really scare an axie. Check the temperature in the fridge before you put her in to ensure it's at least 5 degrees - apparently 7 or 8 degrees is 'ideal', but given that Melbourne is forecast to have 42 degrees C tomorrow, it's doubtful your fridge will be that cold. If your fridge is under 5 degrees, you may want to consider putting her in an esky, with picnic coolers underneath. I had both of my axies in the esky at various times and the temperature stayed at 10 or 11 degrees which is a good temp for them.

If you put her in the fridge, make sure you put another container of water in the fridge as well, so when you do her daily change, you don't stress her by putting her into water of a different temperature. It's unlikely that she will eat when in the fridge, but do offer her food each time you change her water.

Good luck!!
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Christina
 
M

mel

Guest
Hi Joan (& Christina
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)

ok, latest update - things are not going as well as we'd hoped and I'm feeling quite useless and worried. We put Bubbles in the fridge for three days, changing her water everyday, and monitoring her. She had eaten three days before we put her in and I fed her a little frozen white bait (the only food we've ever given her) when we put her in the container.

The next day she had done a little poo and puked the fish up. We maintained the water temp and quality through the entire process of moving her out of the tank to moving her back in.

Anyway...the short story is that when we put her back in the tank this morning her back end was up higher than ever. Unfortunately, we had booked to be away from home and so didn't feel comfortable putting her back in the fridge as we couldn't guarantee we'd be back in time to change her water within around 24 hours. So she remains in the tank as I write. I'm thankful that she is clever enough to wedge herself in her little cave and her tunnel to keep her bum and legs down, but it is so distressing to watch.

While she was in the fridge the water level just covered her so her back legs were down. She also seemed to 'burp' tiny bubbles rather than stick her head up and gulp. She was quite active in the fridge and interestingly there was a dramatic change to the mutant gill lump - it reduced significantly which makes us think it is an infection that is irritated by the higher water temp. We'll start treating this as soon as we get home.

In the meantime we're at a bit of a loss to know what to do - apart from possibly changing her diet. The weather is going to heat up again, so I think the fridge will be the best place for her. Her belly is not swollen, and we can't see any of the other signs that she is stressed.

We're at a public computer, but are going to have a go at posting a pic of Bubbles. She probably will look in poor condition - covered in blotches etc - but this is because of the terrible state of her home when we axie-napped her. In general, she has enjoyed really good health since we've had her.

I'll look forward to more of your wisdom. Joan, we'll take a list based on your last post to the aquarium and get some new food for her when we get back.

many thanks again, Mel & Toni


PS - we've had to log in as 'guests' coz we can't seem to get the user id and password right and my email provider website is down (wouldn't ya know it!
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M

mel

Guest
Hi again Joan,

I've just been reading about the frozen fish as food and we've learned that it can lead to thiamine deficiency. Is it possible that thiamine deficiency could lead to some sort of tummy upset? (Have to say, all I want to do is turn around and go home right now and give her some beef heart or (ugh!
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) worms, but it's not possible just yet.
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S

stipe

Guest
Hi Mel, welcome to the forum,
Sorry abotu your axie i hope it gets better soon
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. Its a good thing that your axie's burping the bubbles. Mine floated exacly like yours but after a while it burped out the air bubbles and returned to normal, and know i got another proble man infeected eye, geez, anyways axies heal faster in colder water rather than warmer environments like other animals so it'll get better in the fridge faster and take Joans advice to rap the container in a townl or get a coloured one becuse axies dont like light expecialy white albino ones, i dont know why mabey thier lack of pigment is the reason.

Be carefull on the beef heart i know heaps of places recomend it but its full of fat and if you use it as a staple it could lead to all sorts of problems, I dont think that thiamine deficiency is doing that but if your worried you could dust the food in some multi-vitamin powder from a pet shop.
 
S

sharn

Guest
if you are concerned about her diet feed her a huge range of food- change it every day to get the nutrients she needs. im not sure what could be wrong with her but im sure someone else will be around to help soon
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J

joan

Guest
Frozen fish can lead to thiamine deficiencies. It may be the fish that's causing the upset stomach. If you fed her just before putting her in the fridge, and then tried to feed her again, she may not have digested the first meal and threw up the second.

If you put her in a larger container in the fridge, you can go longer than 24 hours without water changes.

Dusting the food does no good, as the dust rinses off in water, as axolotls are aquatic. I agree with Sharn. Feeding a wide range of foods is the best way to get a balanced diet. I put multivitamin powder in with my worms, and they ingest it as they eat. This helps increase their nutrition level slightly. If you're going to feed crickets regularly, they should be gutloaded with a multivitamin powder (dust it on pieces of vegetables and feed to crickets).

I'd bet money that she just needs a big poo. Keep on with the cool water, and when you've got a few days at home, with the fridge.
 
M

mel

Guest
Hi again,

Bubbles is back in the fridge and much happier. She devoured a beef strip last night but nothing's appeared yet
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- whoever thought I'd spend my summer waiting for an axie to poo! -. Anyway, we're off to the aquarium this morning for a water quality check and with a shopping list for better foods for her - worms etc. I'm keeping my fingers crossed, but am optimistic that you're right Joan.

We're putting a pic up that shows clearly the gill stump that we think is infected. The problem will be diagnosing if it is a bacterial or parasitic infection, I guess. I don't think its fungal. It seems to get more pronounced in the heat (as if blood vessels fill? and I guess that makes sense) and then it calms down and looks less 'angry' in the cooler water.

I'm not sure if you'll be able to see it clearly. When we click on the picture it enlarges and you can see it clearly

cheers for now, M & T
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J

joan

Guest
It's definately not fungal. It looks like it may be a blister of some sort. If it gets bigger in the heat, that may be due to increased blood flow. I'd talk to a vet, anyway. Or one of the more experienced keepers could give you a better idea.

Good luck.
 
M

mel

Guest
Hi Joan, thanks for your thoughts. I agree, so I'll let you know the outcome of the vet consult. Still no poo! But she's definitely happier in the fridge. We bought a couple of new thermometers and the water at the bottom of the tank is still well below 18 degrees - so that's good. The water quality test was fine, we need to soften it a little and there was a touch of ammonia in it. We'll get it re-tested before we return bubbles. We have decided to ask our friends who also have an axie if they'd like to take turns buying a container of earth worms and sharing them. This seems to be the best thing to do. I'm very squeamish and Toni is vegan, so is little unsure about feeding live worms to Bubbles. The last time we put a heap of tiny little worms in her tank she showed no interest at all and they disappeared among the substrate, so I think it will be a case of hand feeding (or tong feeding) the worm to her.

The jaw of the woman at the aquarium nearly hit the floor when we said she was in the fridge. When we said we got our advice from people on the net who were VERY experienced with axo's she was skeptical, so I politely
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informed her that since dealing with them we had been told a) keep feeding her only frozen whitebait, b) sold a heater for a 50 litre tank, c) told to keep the temperature at 22 degrees C minimum and d) that there were no axo specialists in Victoria.

Fortunately she knew most of this to be wrong information so she backed off and let me continue. We were also worried to see that they have young three goldens in a tank that is quite warm and very well lit. *sigh* I think I might give them the url for this site next time we go in and tell them that every purchaser of an axo should be told to use this site.

Anyway, its back to 'poo-watch' :D

ciao for now, Mel
 
C

casey

Guest
Hi Mel!

I'm from Victoria too. Which aquarium did you go to? Just so I know where to stay away from.

I've been using a compost system with compost worms which works quite well, and despite the initial cost of $90 for setting it up, I never have to buy food for my axies, although I do feed them axolotl pellets which I got from a pet store in Springvale South, but don't buy axies from there - last time I looked they had about 15 axies in a 2 foot tank.

I also had to buy a chiller for my tank which cost $620 because my room gets really hot. There are ways to make your own chiller if you need to. You don't have to spend heaps of money like I did.

My axies have had their rear end up on occasion and I have noticed it to be because they need to poo.

I use chopsticks to feed worms to my axies - then it's really like dinner.

Anyways good luck with your axies.
 
J

joan

Guest
Mel, good on ya for sticking to your guns (and our advice) at the pet shop. A lot of them really have no clue about axolotls. Most of them neglect because they're not educated. More people should be like: nice, polite, and gentle when educating the pet shops.

About the squeamish part: I'm not big on worms either. They kind of creep me out. And I feel bad for killing them, but I try to keep in mind that it's all part of the food chain, and that's a worms place on earth, to be eaten. I use long tweezers to feed mine so I don't have to touch the worms.

If you really don't want to feed live worms, Rangen makes a sinking salmon pellet that is a good staple. I imagine you could find something similar over there. I'm sure others in Australia use salmon pellets.
 
M

mel

Guest
Hi everyone,

well, I've spoken to the vet today and his first concern was that Bubbles was metamorphosing, but there has been no change to her tail, it is still very 'finny' and paddle like and she still swims without a problem so we ruled that out.

She has been in the fridge now for a week and did a big poo, but experienced no improvement with the floating. He suggested we get her out of the fridge because basically her system is shutting down which explains why she is not eating (I kinda figured that her metabolism was so slow that she wouldn't be hungry but assumed she wouldn't need anything?). Anyway...we'll drop the water level in the tank and take some of the gravel out so that she just has a very fine layer of gravel and can keep her feet on the bottom of her tank without floating. He said to keep her between 12 and 20 celcius and in a few days try to feed her an earth worm and that she should then be ok, but that her metabolism won't allow her body to normalise while she remains in the fridge.

I'm distressed because he said that if she doesn't eat then the prognosis is quite bleak and I don't want to lose her :-(. anyway, I'll keep you all informed with what happens over the weekend.

If this appears as an unregistered guest posting (as I suspect I will have to do) it is because everytime we use a different computer we are unable to log in - even when we enter the correct password or get a new one.
 
T

theresa

Guest
Gosh, i hope things get better soon. That must be hard to watch and try to figure out what is really going on...
Joan, i see you live in Michigan. (gorgeous state). Where do you get the ragen pellets? is that something you can get at a pet store? (like petco?)
 
J

joan

Guest
Thank you, Theresa, I enjoy my Mitten too, although it hasn't snowed since November, and our high temperature yesterday was 50F!!

I don't use the pellets, but my understanding is that you have to order them in 40 pound bags(!!) from Rangen, or you can order smaller quantities from Michael Shrom or the Kentucky Axolotl Colony.
 
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