Total relapse in condition....

Hey all... I think I just have to give up. I have now spent about six months solid on the treatment and care and trying to save these little fellas... as you all might know from previous posts the condition they have been in... things were looking really good in the fridge until I came home today, they are both COVERED in fungus again and the bigger one is so bad that when I popped him in a salt bath I could see little specs of blood just trailing down from the gills, it's terrible. He can't move his back legs either.

Should I put them to sleep and sell the tank folks? I can't take this anymore. Every day I come home and something is wrong and I never get any time to just relax and enjoy them, I feel like an axie vet with the amount of time I have to spend caring for their needs.

Can anyone suggest anything? I think they would be happier asleep at this stage... this is killing me.... please help.

Celia,

don't give in, they might just get better. don't have the backyard burial just yet. esp since when they are SO sick they don't move at all, (and then a gill flicked, phew that was close)!!.

are you changing any of their water that they are in whilst they are in the fridge?
the water might be getting a bit grotty etc and might just need a change over??

might be time to use an anti-fungal treatment as well as it's sounding a bit desperate now.
can't find the FURAN-2 med ANYWHERE (well not in the shire anyway) so i used TRI-SULPHA tablets.

might be worth having 'new' tank water chilled so you can change their 'current' water.

everything you've done sounds OK, have you checked the water quality (pH ammonia nitr's etc) are they OK.

Peter.

I have new tank water chilling to change their current water, I've been doing it either every day for the one I've been force feeding (who by the way apart from a relapse in a bit of fungus on the gills is actually looking heaps better, I can't see all the way down to his tail when he opens his mouth now and he's done two poos, although one had blood in it) and every second day or so for the other one. I just realised I don't think my salt baths have been strong enough, what a waste of a week, but the big fella, who so far has been totally well but the carrier of the fungus, he's just nearly dead, he's SO sick, my other axi was like this just before he died, although it was at the vet's so I don't know what they used on him, he's laying on the bottom, slightly tilted, his back legs aren't working at all it seems and he has blood coming from every fungal sore it seems, he's bleeding from the genitals. He's a wild-type, black with gold speckles, I can see a reddish tinge all the way through the gold speckles like he's bleeding everywhere. I just put him in tap water because that site recommended it for fungus, but it was a real quick bath (less than a minute) and back in the fridge container. I have changed their containers so no more wounds can happen either and he's still bleeding a bit. It's not profusely but it's enough to make me very concerned. Before I brushed a bit of fungus from his gills when he was in the salt bath and this trail of blood specks just started pooling down until a little pool stopped at the bottom and then it was done with. I have read nothing about this anywhere and just don't know what to do. I will buy the Tri-Sulpha tablets tomorrow if I can, I don't finish TAFE until 5.30 though... gah. Help.... BTW thank you for all your help over this period.

C

To go from looking good to COVERED in bloody fungus and paralysed sounds like columnaris bacteria to me... it's nasty and kills quickly. I've lost new fish to it overnight, when they looked great before. Columnaris loves cool, uncirculating or oxygen poor water, but I don't know if it's ever taken hold in something as cold as fridge water (people don't usually keep fish refridgerated though.) You usually see it in bettas, because they're tropical fish. When people keep them in unheated little bowls, the stress can let the bacteria take control. Since your axies have been ill/stressed, and are now completely covered, I'd suspect columnaris.

Fungal treatments won't work for this, it's a bacterial infection, so you'll need something specifically for columnaris bacteria. Once they're covered like that though, prognosis isn't usually good...

I hope it's something else, you and your axolotls certainly deserve to see some positive results from all your work- they're such tough little guys! I really hope they get better, good luck.

Thank you Leah but I'm afraid my Thugsy (the larger black one) has died. He isn't moving at all now. From memory this is what Yella Fella died of. I remember the vet saying some things to me but I wasn't in much of a state to hear it at the time. Sh*t. I wish I could do something. The little one is eating etc but yeah, he's got the fungus again too. Should I just do the best thing for them and put them to sleep? I don't want to but I can't stand them living in pain. I suspect it's too late to ask that question on the black one, I'm quite sure he's dead now. Should I just put the little one in some clove oil before he goes so horribly too? God this is so hard.

Thanks for all your help too Leah, you've been quite a help over this time. I really appreciate it.

If your little one is keeping the food down and still able to move, I'd go out and get some columnaris treatment. Try it. Since whatever this is isn't responding to any of your efforts to treat a FUNGUS, maybe it isn't a fungal infection at all... I'd look for something anti-bacterial, and something specifically for columnaris ('cause it's tough to get rid of, and quick to kill whatever it infects!)

The little one is such a fighter to have been through so much, I wouldn't feel right putting him down when he was just starting to show signs of improvement. Separate the two (I'm sure you have already) and try the columnaris treatment for the little one. I would give Thugsy's water a healthy dose of clove oil just in case he isn't dead yet, to help him go as painlessly as possible Ultimately it's up to you how you deal with the little guy, but I'd try the columnaris treatment- he's a fighter and could still pull through!

I really am sorry about Thugsy, you did your best for him

Poor Thugsy! You did all you could, I am so sorry for your loss.

Keep trying for the little guy, don't give up on him yet. You're both in my thoughts! Keep us updated.

Thanks so much guys. Does anyone know the names of any columnaris treatments? The Mela-Fix says that it treats anti-bacterial infections but then it's blue so I assume it's that hell bad stuff for the little fella. I will have a search about but though if anyone knew off the top of their head we could try it. I'm not sure about little Thugsy, at one point I thought he moved a bit but it was while I wasn't watching so I couldn't be sure. Before I got a small syringe and cleaned him up by sucking the stuff off him (very gently), he only moved with my movement (if I accidentally bumped him a little), I cleaned him up real good and the blood seems to have gone from the surface, but then he still hasn't moved so I'm just not sure. I guess all I can do is wait and see if he moves to the other side of hte container in the next day or two... then clove... then beside Yella Fella, it's a tragedy of axolotl proportions.... they're so cute too... If this little guy does pull through I'm going to give him/her (since he's so little) the best and toughest name ever... because he'd deserve it...

Thanks again all.
C

Mela-fix might help. I heard that certain antibiotics can be used to help really bad cases. Maybe you should take him to the vet? I'm no expert in axie treatments, so the experts may be of more help. I hope he pulls through!

Herein lies the problem. My last axie had this and he died at the vet's, given how long these fellas have kicked on since first displaying problems (I've been salt bathing and temp monitoring for months - fridge was last resort) I'm worried that what the vet did killed him, and that was a vet that knew heaps about them in Sydney. There's just not enough who know stuff out there unfortunately. Honestly I think you guys all know more here ....

I'd treat for bacteria, but continue the fungal treatments as well. The fungus is probably attacking due to the depressed state of the axies immune system. You'll need to treat both. You should be able to find a medication for both.

Mela-fix will not help. All it does is irritate the mucous membranes, causing them to produce more mucous. The extra mucous aids in protecting the animal against further infection, and the extra protection can give their immune systems the help needed to fight infection, but it doesn't actually kill the bacteria...

Kanacyn/Kanamycin, tetracycline, spectrogram are some I think treat columnaris, but I don't know if they're available in Australia. If you can, run to the store in the morning and read through all the labels. One should hopefully specify columnaris. If not, go for a broad-spectrum anti-biotic. It may not be columnaris, but from the speed it took Thugsy, I think it is. Even if it isn't, treating for fungus hasn't helped, so it may be some form of bacteria affecting your axies instead of a fungus like we thought.

The catch if it is columnaris is that the bacteria loves cold water, so, while the fridge is good for axie healing, it's also good for this particular bacteria's growth... I really don't know what would be better- remove from the fridge or not? If it were me, I'd go to http://wetwebfotos.com/talk and ask a user named "vintage-fish" for her advice. I don't know of any one person who'e more knowledgeable on aquatic diseases, and if there's something we've missed here she'll be able to pick it. Your best bet is probably to post in the 911 forum and put her name in the title of the post. Even if you can't grab her attention right away, everyone else there is amazing and may know more than us here... I find that in general, axie keepers are uneducated about the basics of water quality and common aquatic diseases- probably because most axies we buy come from healthy, captive-bred colonies and have never been exposed to many of the pathogens that affect wild-caught fish in the aquarium trade. Just my opinion, but when I'm in doubt I ask experienced fish keepers as well as the folks here.

From: http://www.adelaideaquariums.com.au/faqs/disease/showdis.asp?DiseaseID=3

Treatment must be prompt, especially where the acute form of the disease is present. The affected fish should be removed from the aquarium and given a short term bath (1 hour) in water treated with salt (3g per litre for most species but up to 10g per litre can be used for livebearers) and either myxazin, furan or an acriflavine based medication at two to three times the normal recommended dosage. The aquarium should be water changed and treated with myxazin before returning the fish, and a little salt can also be added. For less severe cases, a water change followed by treatment with myxazin should suffice. Follow up with a second treatment in two to three days time

It's an Australian site, so hopefully one of those meds is available to you..

I had a look at that one actually and printed it out, from Adelaide Aquariums yeah? I will go to the pet store now. Maybe I should put my little boy back in the tank, but he's just so little, he'd be so lonely and small in that great big 4ft tank all by himself. This is the worst thing, if I had realised that Yella Fella was happy enough by himself in his 1ft square tank he'd probably still be alive today. I was such a spaz and didn't separate them when I got them and I think Thugsy had something all along because it then took Yella Fella within weeks of getting Thugsy. He held out strong amazingly until the fridge so I would say it was the columnaris. He is definitely dead now. He has not moved in over 30 hours, there is another big pool of blood all over the gills, like coagulated blood. I sucked some of it away from the floor and him gently yesterday with a syringe and the blood was like long stringy gelatine almost, not like blood that just mixes with water... hmmm what else, yeah I cleaned him up and now there's just big clumps of it again, should I still put the clove oil in just in case. I'm sure he's not alive though...

As for me little boy, wish me luck. Maybe he should go back in the main tank do you think? Mind you it's in the 20s in there. I could build the aquarium chiller soon though.

So many things... sheesh.

Alright... back on to it... Thanks again all.

Forever mourning my Yella Fella and Thugsy... they were both SO cute...

C

We've had a back yard burial and there are now two little butterfly sticks marking their graves (little decorations), I've been wanting to plant some nice flowers over them but it's been so hot.... *curses summer*....

Thank you all again, I'm going to do my best with my littlest fighter, here's hoping he really has got some fight left... I'm off to the aquarium tomorrow afternoon to get the columnaris treatment and I am armed with a stack of info now.

Cheers for the reference Leah and cheers for everyone's help, support and care, especially Leah and Peter.

Cheers again all.

C

Okay update again, my pet store are so nice, they don't sell myaxin anymore, these treatments are all becoming illegal in Aust apparently (bugger), anyway, they had a big bottle of it stored for their own usage and they lent it to me, can you believe it? Shows how often I go in there... tee hee. Anyways, wish me luck all. I'm going to try the Adelaide Aquariums recommended treatment for columnaris which is the 1 hr salt and myaxin bath... I hope this works. (fingers crossed)

Help.

One of my axies has a similar condition to the one Celia M has been talking about. I'm especially concerned because I have 2 axies one huge one and one not so huge one, the huge on doesn't have a scratch on him.

A few mornings over the last couple of weeks I have been waking up and noticing strange wounds on Charlie's (smaller one) body, mainly her legs. The wounds are nasty and looks like something is eating away into them. She is now floating around the top of my tank with 2 messed up legs, gulping at air. She also hasn't eaten in a good week.

She had a similar wound and infection when I first introduced Moogs (the huge male axie) into the tank on her mouth which I managed with anti-bios, salt baths and water treatment but none of that is working now.

Could it be possible that Moogs is causing these injuries? He is monster when it comes to eating so maybe Charlie got too close and he took a chunk out of her legs(??). If so, I am contemplating taking him back to the where he came from so that Charlie has more chance of recovery.

Any advise is appreciated as I am out of ideas.

Isolate Charlie. Its not clear from your post exactly what the infection looks like - can you post a pic?? I'm not really experienced with infections and the such, but I would continue with the salt bathing and refrigeration

A) Not eating. Temps have dipped over the last 1-2 weeks in WA, so heat shouldn't be a problem. (unless you live somewhere up North?)It could be stress from having Moogs around, it could be something wrong with the water. How big is the tank? Test the water for pH, ammonia, nitrite, nitrate.

B) Keep a close eye on Moogs. If he starts showing signs of infection or wounding, then salt bathe.

C) Prior wound on Charlie. If this was present before Moogs was introduced, it must be something in the tank. Do you have any sharp ornaments - if so, get rid of em.

The poor girl isn't well.

I have separated them but unfortunately I am unable give her a tank of her own.
Temp: 21.2C
pH: 7.4 - 7.6
ammonia: 0
nitrite: 0

Charlie's first wound appeared when Moogs was introduced to the tank.
The wounds currently on her legs look like the have been striped. They go along half way along the leg and at one stage were bleeding pretty bad. There is some skin hanging off.
Her tail is also starting to deteriorate and shrink.

The pic is shocking but maybe you can make out the shredded tail and the wounded foot.

http://home.it.net.au/%7Ememphis/download/injury.jpg

I will continue to keep them separate and to give salt baths and refrigeration and hopefully her condition will improve.

Thanks for your help.

RIP Charlie.