Cycling questions

I've been reading the posts about the tank cycling, which I hate to say I had never heard of before, if only pet shops would tell people these things. My axies aren't doing very well, we've only had them a week and a half, one has died and 2 others that had bad gill damage when we bought them (another thing we weren't aware or told of) are floating up the top regularly.
With 36 degree temperatures at the moment the coolest I can get the tank is between 25 and 28 degrees and the water is fouling very quickly because they won't eat the pellets often, nor the mealworms, beef heart, bloodworms or brineshrimp. So we've been doing almost 50 per cent water changes each day.
After reading about the cycling I'm worried water changes will slow down the process. Is it okay to do small water changes to try and clean the foul water and not disturb the cycle period?
Could high nitrites be a cause of the floating?
Thanks for any help, I'm desperately trying to save these guys.

Get them out of the tank and into a shallow container where they can easily reach the top to gulp air if they need. Bad gill damage is not the end of things- one of my axolotls has no gills at all (bought that way) and is healthy, but needs to breathe at the surface more often than my other, normal axie. In a smaller container you'll be able to do daily water changes easily- just leave the main tank alone and let the cycle finish. Do you have any test kits for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate?

25-28 is way too hot! Can you possibly put them somewhere cooler? A basement maybe, or air conditioned room? If there's no other option, put them in the fridge. My two spent a week in the fridge a while back when it got really hot, and I think they were happier there than in a tank with constantly fluctuating temperatures.

Have you tried feeding earthworms? My first axolotl would accept frozen foods, but the second one would only accept live worms at first. It could be that yours are used to live foods and don't recognise the other things you're offering as edible?

You're right, water changes do slow the cycling process. It's possible that toxins in the water are causing the floating, but with 50% daily water changes the water quality really shouldn't be all that terrible after only a week and a half. More likely it's the temperatures stressing them. Cool temperatures like the fridge will help relieve some stress and will also promote healing of the gills.

From the sound of things you've recognised the problems early on, before any illness or fungal infections become a problem. Keep an eye out for any more unusual symptoms/behaviour, but I think if you can get them out of the tank and somewhere cool you should be fine!

Thanks Leah, appreciate the help, I was hoping you'd reply as I noticed you know what you're talking about regarding cycling I've seen on other posts. The temperature is 28 degrees today in the tank, and that's in an air con room, with an extra fan directly on their tank and a floating ice bottle. But the shops I bought them from had their tanks at 29 all the time so they didn't tell us about the cold water requirement, also they weren't floating in the shops. Otherwise we wouldn't have bought the poor things to subject them to this.
One question regarding the fridge, wouldn't it stress them going immediately from the tank to the fridge temperatures? I'm worried that might hurt them more.
And if straight fresh water (using neutraliser) is in the shallow bowls wouldn't that introduce more ammonia? Or should I use some of the tank water in their new home? Is the cycling only a concern if using a biological filter?
The water is so foul because of the uneaten pellets and the feeder fish waste I think I'd have to start the cycle again with a full water change. I think I would just put a few pellets in the water to start the cycle?
I don't yet have the ammonia, nitrite, nitrate kits as they are $33 each here! And I don't know if they include treatment for the chemicals either, I think that's the price just to test. Is there anything to add to bring these down? I added an ammonia removal ball, hopefully it's working, if so, I guess I'm having nitrite spikes then.
Thanks again and sorry for all the questions, if only pet shop staff told people these things.

I forgot to say I've only found one pet shop an hour away that has earthworms and they are really thin ones and they don't seem remotely interested. A couple of them will take a full blood worm cube if fed by tweezers and none of them are keen on mealworms now. The beef heart cubes are completely ignored. Only two of them will go for the pellets and maybe they are eating the feeders but there's too many in there to tell. I'd love to teach them to eat from the same spot each day on flat slate or something but I don't know if that's hard for them to learn.

Ouch- test kits here are 10-15$ each, 33$ is crazy!

If you move them to a small container, you will need to change that water daily because as they eat and produce waste the water will quickly become polluted. If you can get them into the fridge though, their metabolism slows to a point where they won't eat (mine wouldn't anyway) and you'll be alright for several days without changing the water. The fridge isn't a permanent solution; I wouldn't leave them in longer than a week, but through the really hot spells it is an option. To move them to the fridge, get some fresh, treated water and let it adjust to the same temperature as the tank water. Move the axolotls into the new water, and then put them in the fridge. The water will cool down slowly in the fridge, instead of throwing them straight into already ice cold water. Make sure there is a lid on the container you use, just in case someone tries to jump out!

You don't need to add anything to your tank to reduce the ammonia/nitrite levels. That's what cycling the tank does- it gives the nitrifying bacteria a chance to multiply until there are enough of them to neutralise these toxins. If you remove the ammonia the bacteria will have nothing to feed on, effectively halting the cycle. You actually WANT to see the amonia/nitrite RISE- lets you know the cycle is progressing! All you need to do is throw some food in, or any other form of waste and leave it. Take the feeder fish out too if you can- the toxins can hurt them too. Cycling is a concern in any tank, and proper tank maintenance is something everyone needs to learn. Have you called any other shops to see what their test kit prices are? Looked online? You want chemical test kits, not the ones with the paper strips, as these aren't always the most accurate.

Do you have any bait shops nearby? There's a camping supply store I go to that sells worms, about 100 for 3.85$ I've seen home composting kits/worm farms in Kmart here, but I'm mot sure what kind of worms they contained. There are some worms that axolotls don't seem to like (but they'll eat anything when they get hungry enough!) You could also try digging in your yard, especially after it's rained!

I should also add that most test kits are good for hundreds of tests before they need to be replaced, so they are worth the investment!

Thanks again Leah. I tried an earthworm earlier, no one was keen. My albino looks almost dead now, it can hardly move, though it's not floating, it's on the bottom, now I'm worried they are starving. I had no idea these guys would be so hard to feed. The guy at the pet shop said "They are as easy as goldfish and need the same conditions!" No chance, I've been breeding fancy goldfish for years and never cycled or had any problems at all, least of all getting them to eat. I hope I'm not the only one who has trouble feeding them!
Maybe the ammonia ball has caused more problems, they seem worse since we put that in. I'm just worried about housing meantime as I need to do a full water change.
I will get the testing kits, it's just bizarre to me how expensive they are, especially when there's not anything to lower the rates, even if I find out they're too high there's nothing I can do to lower them. And I think I'll invest in an external filter rather than the sponge filter as it doesn't do much.
I imagine I'll just have the same problems in a new container till it cycles but I have to do something.

Hi Julia,
I didn't let my tank run in enough either and my axies were stressed also. I put them in smaller containers like leah suggested while my tank cycled but as I was worried about the temps going higher in smaller containers ( didn't think to put them in the fridge) I bought a product called "cycle" which you add to the tank once a week until cycled and I also used a product called "nitrasorb" to absorb the nitrite as that was quite high. My tank was cycled after 2 weeks instead of 4 - 6 weeks! I would definately try these products if you are concerned about keeping them in smaller containers. If the water is that fouled i would start again by removing all the water and cleaning the tank well (don't use any detergents). But i wouldn't clean out the filter as your biological matter is already building up in there and that will help the tank to cycle. The test kits you need can be purchased on e-bay much cheaper than what you can get them for there. I saw them on there in the aquarium supplies for $10. My guys are fab now and eating well. Just a note - hand feeding is better as you don't leave the waste to build up in the tank and you can also monitor what they eat. If this isn't possible just syphon out the uneaten food daily. Goodluck. I hope this helps you.

Goldfish are tougher because they have scales and gill covers, where axolotls do not. Your goldfish tanks have certainly cycled, it's just happened without your knowing it
The guy at the store was right though, they do need the same basic conditions as goldfish- COLD, clean water. You need to get the temperature under control somehow. Axolotls can't handle heat for very long without succumbing to the stress. After only a week and a half, I don't think they could be starving to death. More likely they're too stressed from heat and poor water quality to feel like eating.

I don't think you're understanding just what cycling is. You DO NOT need to do a full water change in your tank. Get the axolotls out of there and leave the tank alone. The only water you'll need to change daily is the water in the axolotls' temporary housing. You DO NOT need any products to lower ammonia and nitrite levels. Nature has given us her own solution- nitrifying bacteria. But if you don't stop fiddling and let the cycle complete, you won't ever build up a big enough bacterial colony to do the job properly.

Just a quick review of what happens when a tank cycles:
1. Fish/axolotls produce waste. As this waste decomposes, ammonia is released into the water. Ammonia is toxic to living things.
2. Bacteria in the water called nitrifying bacteria feed on the ammonia, breaking it down and releasing a new toxin, nitrite. As they feed, the bacteria are also multiplying. Now there is no ammonia, but we still have poison in the water, nitrite.
3. The bacteria continue feeding, breaking the nitrite down into nitrAte. Nitrate is pretty safe, only very high levels are potentially harmful.
4. Your fish/axolotls have been producing waste this entire time. The process of converting ammonia to nitrite, then to nitrate continues. At some point, usually about a month into this, the size of the bacterial colony has grown so that it is consuming ALL of the waste. At this point, when you test your water, you will find ZERO ammonia and ZERO nitrite, because there is no excess left- the bacteria are getting it all. This is when your cycle is complete.
5. NitrAte readings at this point will usually be around 20-25ppm. This is ok, safe. Since there is nothing feeding on the nitrAte, these levels will rise as more and more ammonia/nitrite are metabolised. Water changes are meant to control the nitrate levels in a tank. By taking high nitrate water out and replacing this with freshly treated tap water, we reduce the overall nitrate levels in our tank. We only do water changes once the cycle is COMPLETE. Changing water before this slows the process, as you're also removing the ammonia/nitrite that nourish the nitrifying bacteria. Once the cycle is complete, weekly changes of 10-25% are enough to keep a properly stocked tank healthy.

***6. Instead of leaving your fish/axolotls in a tank while it cycles, it's more humane to replace the waste they produce with another form of waste- food. Fish flakes, pellets, a piece of shrimp... basically any organic kind of waste. You could also add ammonia directly in the tank. I've never tried this myself, but have heard you can buy it bottled and ready to use.

We (aquarists) call this "cycling" but if the process seems familiar it's because you probably learned it in high school biology, under another name: the nitrogen cycle.

Hope that helps a bit

A better filter is a good idea though- sponge filters are usually junk. An external or internal filter with a large chamber to hold filer media (sponge, sometimes carbon) will give the nitrifying bacteria lots of room to grow (they end up living in the filter media, creating a "biological filter" within the mechanical one.) You could also look at an undergravel filter, a lot of people here use them and have found that their axolotls do really well with them. When you get your new filter, look for something that's not too powerful and has an adjustable flow. That way if it's a bit too turbulent you'll be able to slow the flow a bit.

"Cycle" is a hit-and-miss product in my experience. This could be because the stores I dealt with often had it shipped in frozen... not good for live bacterial cultures Marineland's "BioSpira" is one that's worked wonders in an emergency for me, cycling a tank in 24 hours- lots of healthy bacteria in there!

Glad to hear your guys are doing well Cathy, that's wonderful news!

Actually- just a thought. Julia, do you have an established filter from one of your goldfish tanks that you could put in your axolotl tank? Introducing an established bacterial colony to a new tank is another option, and almost creates an "instant" cycle, since the cycle itself is just the amount of time the bacteria take to grow... you'd be giving it a massive boost at the very least.

Just did a major clean out of all tanks, so no other filters have been constantly running for more than 2 weeks I'm afraid. I tried to look for the Bio-Spira but I don't think it's available in Australia but I'll go on a hunt for it. I'll look for the Cycle too.
Thanks Cathy for your help too. I'm looking on Ebay, there's a major test kit for $89, the only other one I've seen is $60, but I'm going to have to get one anyway. And Cathy do yours eat better in cooler weather? Maybe they are too hot to want to eat much?
I'd put them in the 3 foot or the 4 foot goldfish tanks meantime but they are in a hotter position and again we did a full water changes only 10 days ago. We thought we were being good pet owners, now I know better! The only other vacant tank is a tiny 20 Ltre and 5 axolotls, ouch!
Their tank is a 170 litre round tank, I thought maybe the round tank would be cooler, with better circulation. I'm looking at external filters at the moment, it's time to invest in a decent one. Maybe the externals cool the water slightly also in the process.
I so badly want to master axies but I'm getting a bit worried about them, the eating is the major problem.

How big are your axies? If they're small enough, you could try some daphnia as well as what you've been offering. Do you know what the store was feeding them?

Daphnia seems hard to find here and I'd look for some in my ponds but I'd be worried about finding the wrong thing and harming them. The 3 oldest are about 18-19 cms (which do eat most days and still look reasonably healthy) and 2 smaller (the gill-damaged floating ones) are around 13 cms. Both shops said the pellets which only the older ones will take if virtually dropped into their mouths and frozen bloodworm cubes which only the smaller ones eat occasionally!
If you don't mind me asking a really silly question, with the external filters is there a danger of them draining the tank if the power goes out? We tried to make our own filter and it did start to drain our tank when there was a blackout and we get a lot of blackouts here.

Hi Julia,
My guys are real pigs and will eat at any time of the day, but just to let you know my male axie went off his food completely when my nitrite levels were high. My temps are around 22 - 25 degrees (i know this is too warm) even though they are in an air conditioned room with a fan blowing on top of the water. My axies still eat well even though the temps are high. I am sure their metabolism is actually faster in warmer water. I think the feeding problems you are having are due to poor water quality rather than temperature - you probably already know this though. I feed mine axie pellets, earthworms, meal worms and lean beef ( a lot of people don't agree with mammal meat but I only use it very occasionally and they have no trouble with it), I also found these pellets called Nutrafin Freeze Dried Tablets, they are larger than the axie pellets and easier to feed. They have bloodworms, tubifex and brineshrimp in them, they LOVE them!!!
I started off with a box filter in my 2 foot tank but i found it to not be enough filtration as they are quite messy animals. I now use an aquaone hang on power filter. You can turn the current strength down, it doesn't bother my guys at all and the water is crystal clear. There is a Brisbane based aquarium that sells cheap test kits and filters etc called age of aquariums that you might want to look up. My husband keeps rare african cichlids and he said they are excellent. Hope this helps. How are they all doing now?

cathy,
how long have you had your axies and is this temperature year round

Thanks Cathy, I'll look them up, and the food you recommend. Two of them are looking really unwell at the moment and they won't eat, mind you the tank is at 28 degrees and I can't get it down any further.
A new type of pellet they like might get them eating again.

Julia, I went through the same problem with one of my axies. During a rise in temperature she stopped eating and had a string of fungal infections. I went out and bought nearly every food under the sun, desperately hoping she would eat.
After nearly two months, there was nothing left I could do. She was so skinny, her fin along her back was almost completely receeded, and I had to put her to sleep.
After reading everything I can find on problems like this, the only thing I think could have helped was putting her in the fridge for a week or two.
Just take a container of water from the tank, with the boys/girls in it, cover it and put it in the fridge to slowly cool down. The axies will be fine as long as you replace a little of their container water with fresh treated water each day. They wont need to eat as their metabolism will slow.
After a week or two, remove the container from the fridge, allowing the axies and their water to come to room temperature naturally.
Then you can try a feeding. But from my own experience get them in the fridge right now, before it's too late. I really hope this works out for you, I know how hard it is watching them waste away and feeling completely helpless.
Good Luck

Hi Lisa,
I have had my axies for only 1 month. This temperature won't be year round as I imagine the house will be a lot cooler in winter - I hope so anyway. There isn't a lot I can do about this temp as the room is already air conditioned and i have a fan blowing on top of the water with ice bottles also if it gets too hot. They seem fine at the moment but I realise if they are exposed to temps like this for an excessive amount of time I could run into problems. The tank is at 20 degrees today which isn't too bad.
Julia I hope those pellets work for you, but maybe you should try putting them in the fridge like Lisa suggested.

(Message edited by jack_and_jill on February 11, 2005)

Julia,

As for the question on the outside filter. If you get a decent one like an Eheim or, damn can't remember the other brand name, with the power head and the outflow pipe and the fancy fancy, they can fully stop power wise (as mine have on the odd occasion due to living in old houses that can't hack the power necessities of modern life) and not leak a drop. They're excellent for pulling out and cleaning too, you just shut off the valves at the points required and then pull out the hoses and go... they're so excellent, invaluable in fact.

Have you tried floating ice bottles on there. I keep a rotation of two (at least one litre - I have a 4ft tank) frozen water bottles, this can help drop temp by about a degree and on really hot days just helps maintain it. The more you can store the better off you are, also the more time you have to monitor as temperature fluctuation sucks for the little kiddies too.

I have just put mine in the fridge as I have given up on the temperature. I am hoping to come up with a solution prior to then. I missed the chest freezer at auction today I had plans to store hundreds of frozen bottles (bummer). My new plan is to con the landlord into insulation and air-con....

Both of them have survived the first day, they have had a salt bath each and a good deal of fungus has come away. Neither are interested in food in the fridge, which is probably not so bad, the metabolic slow down has probably saved my little one's life (he hasn't eaten for 1.5 months, similar to above story but I have him in the fridge in a last ditch effort to save him)... If you can't get that temp down I would suggest the fridge as an option. I have a spare fridge though so this makes it a bit easier.

Cheers
C