Some Tragic Losses

I had a very bad experience yesterday with some recently imported Tylototriton taliangenses. Below is part of an email describing the situation. I am really at a loss over this. Any suggestons would be appreciated..

I've had
> some unfortunate losses with the taliangenses. They all looked good
> from the start but I gave them a day to settle in before feeding them.
> They all ate well the first time that I fed them (roaches). A couple
> of days later I offered chopped earthworms and all ate well but one,
> which appeared very sluggish. Later that night the sluggish one died
> but I accepted this as part of buying imports. The rest looked good.
> They continued to accept food a couple of more times, being fed last
> Friday and then again yesterday. Yesterday after feeding I decided to
> change the paper towels in their quarantine containers. I picked them
> up and placed them in a dry bucket for the minute or so it took me to
> rinse out the containers and replace the towels. While they were in
> the bucket they all spased out, I have never seen anything quite like
> it. This is a bucket that I have used for partial water changes and it
> has never had any sort of chemical in it other than dechlorinator.
> After I placed them back in their containers they all continued to
> spasm, it looked as if they were having seizures. Their limbs were all
> drawn up and they were flopping around. Most of them settled down and
> now seem ok but two of them died right in front of me. It is very
> discouraging. Do you have any ideas? The temperature was approximately
> the same in the entire room so I don't think that was a factor. Prior
> to moving them out I fed them all a calcium and mvi covered cricket.
> The only other explanation that I can think of is that possibly some
> of the workers in the house used the bucket for something without my
> knowledge, but I think that this is unlikely as well because I
> probably would have noticed if it looked out of place (I keep a siphon
> and a few fish nets in it when not in use). I have not tried feeding
> the others today but will tomorrow. I feel terrible about this but I
> have kept my new arrivals like this for the last 3 or 4 years now and
> have never seen anything like this happen.
>
> Chip

The rapid onset after entering the bucket is suspicious for contact with some sort of toxin.

Sorry for your loss...
It is kinda strange why this happened when you placed them in the bucket, but for what it's worth, i once had this happen with a few T.Wenxianensis. I know exactly what you mean by your description as i've seen them literally die and fit in front of me....even frothing at the mouth. It's very upsetting to watch.
I sent the bodies off to the vet to try and learn from this experience and was told that these animals had bad kidney damage, which happens of course from the bad shipping conditions. Presumably they dry out and their organs slowly cease to function and they can't filter toxins?
Perhaps your picking them up and putting them in this bucket was just the straw that broke the camels back....(hope that isn't just a british expression and you know what i mean by it!)

Again though, i'm really sorry....such a shame when these things happen....

Hi Chip..sounds to me like shock but what could have caused it in your case i don't know. Was the bucket stood on a concrete floor which could have caused the bottom of the bucket to be a lot colder than the newts....ian

Well I believe that I figured it out. A friend had recently sent me some Australian gobies (Chamdogobius eremius) that enjoy brackish water. I have been adding a few tablespoons of kosher salt to that particular bucket when doing partials on the goby tank. When I was changing out the taliangenses the other day I was hurrying to go to work and that bucket was the closest one within arms reach. This all occured to me during the night after going over this again and again in my mind. I checked the bucket this morning and there is indeed some salt residue on the bottom. I can't believe that I was so negligent and did not think about it at the time. I have not kept marine or brackish water fish in many years so I just was not thinking about the salt. I feel especially bad now because that must have been a horrible death. Out of the five remaining animals three seem very alert but only two of them are eating again. The other two are more sluggish but seem to be hanging on for now - and they are more active than they were yesterday.
Chip

I highly doubt that the salt is the problem... while salt would be irritating to the newts, I have a hard time believing that it would cause death that quickly.

It is possible that the newts were in poor enough condition (for example no reserves to deal with any further stressors) that any stressor could prove lethal.

Did you consider refeeding syndrome as a possible issue?

Ed

I had thought about refeeding syndrome but didn't think that it would be as likely as some contaminant because:
(1) Prior to my receiving the animals they were being held for me for about three weeks during which time they were being cared for and fed by a very experienced caudate enthusiast
(2) The cricket feeding was the fourth time that I had fed them myself (in nine days). It had been two days since the previous feeding and at every feeding I have only offered small amounts of food.
(3) I have on one previous occasion moved them to another container to change the paper towels after feeding and they did not act like they did Monday.

The only thing that I did differently on Monday however was dust the crickets with a 3:1 calcium and multi-vitamin supplement (I did this for all of the animals). Could the extra supplementation have triggered refeeding syndrome?
Chip

Any chance of contamination of the dusting agents? I am not doubting your husbandry or housekeeping skills but errors happen. If you kept salt water as you stated there are all kinds of chemicals that could be left over, ie Calcium Hydroxide (kalkwasser etc.). Even a few grains of that will sned the hardiest of creatures into an acidotic seizure. Sounds unreasonable but nothing should be ruled out untill the true cause is proven.

I would be surprised to learn that any of the chemicals from my marine keeping days are still around. That was around 14 years ago and with the exception of a few aquariums (which are currently in storage) I have none of the old equipment left. That is an insightful suggestion however and certainly one that I had not considered.
Chip

refeeding doesn't have to occur on the first feeding or even the first several feedings... it can take more than several weeks to get a badly starved animal past refeeding...

I suspect that if the ions in the system were lowered sufficiently due to refeeding then the sudden demand for ions due to the stress of handling, moving, irritation etc could have reduced the values even further....

Ed

forgive my ignorance, but can someone please define/describe "refeeding syndrome"?

Hey Brian,
You really need someone more knowledgeable to give a proper definition but from my understanding refeeding syndrome happens when an animal has been under stress and not eating for a period of time (such as most WC's). After becoming so malnourished a sudden influx of nutrients can cause an electrolyte imbalance which can result in shock, multisystem faliure, and death. That's my understanding of it. Ed please feel free to jump in anytime...
Chip

Basically what happens is that due to the poor nutritional status of the animal, they contain low total body contents of nutrients such as phosphate and potassium. The amount of these nutrients maintained close to normal levels by depleting these from the cellular metabolism. These electrolytes are required to move glucose from the blood into the cells. Too rapid an influx (or cellular demand) for glucose moves these ions from the blood into the cell as they transport the glucose into the cells causing problems as the levels drop below those required to support the body's functions. Depending on the status of the animal involved especially herps, it can take awhile to get the total body levels of these electrolytes back to functioning levels. The current recommendation is to feed reptiles and amphibians no more than 50% of the calories to meet thier DMR over a 24 hour period until improvement is noted and then increase the amount by 10-50% increments until normal condition is attained. (paraphrased and in some word groups taken directly from page 282 of Reptile Medicine and Surgery second edition). As the time period until the animal improves can be variable depending on condition (and body reseves) in animals like amphibians it can possibly take more than a few weeks to stabalize the animals.

In this case they were fed putting the demand on the system and then handled (stressed (adrenaline release).. and then irritated by the salt causing an aversion response = more stress = more adrenaline release.

Ed

Got it. Thanks for the explanation!