Algae Eaters and Tank Cleaners

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Beej

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Beej
I have shrimps in my fish tank and they're amazing. I had a hair algae problem and 8 of them wiped it out in less than a week and followed that up with a cleaning job that pine sol lady would be proud of

"That's the power of amano shrimp, baby"

But I know they're gonna be a difficult meal for newts to eat and would probably pose a choking hazard.

Does anyone know of a compatible tank mate aside from snails who could do this job??
 
I'm a big proponent of not using other animals as algae clean up, especially in newt tanks. Most algae can be prevented by frequent water changes, watching light levels and possibly coupled with the addition of a few hardy plants.

There are various problems that can rise up from having different animals including the one you mentioned of newts choking or being otherwise injured by shrimp or catfish. There is also the added bioload on the tank and differences in habitat requirements (as most shrimp and algae eating catfish being tropical.)

A lot of people discourage snails as they can breed out of control, the majority of them being hermaphrodites, and some of them can injure newts with their operculum.

It is generally advised to maintain monospecies enclosures.
 
yeah, I don't wanna do that. Newts encounter other species in the wild and even now I have a tropical fish in with my three newts and they'r best friends.

I'm a strong proponent of multi-species enclosures and nothing will change that aside from a bloody-masacre caused by one docile species murdering a second docile species (won't be adding any Ciclids to my newt tank any time soon)


The other thing is no one does water changes in the forest, that job is done by the food web which I aim at creating a small representation of every time I begin a new aquarium.
 
Beej said:
The other thing is no one does water changes in the forest, that job is done by the food web which I aim at creating a small representation of every time I begin a new aquarium.
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A small glass tank in your house bears no relation to the complex environmental, biological and ecological relationships to be found in a natural water body hence the need for regular cleaning and water changes. Adding more animals in an attempt to “clean” your tank is foolhardy – all animals produce waste so all you achieve is making the tank dirtier (although your glass may be clear of algae).

Have a browse through tales from other newt keepers who thought species mixing was a good idea here: http://www.caudata.org/cc/articles/Mixing_disasters.shtml
 
Beej said:
yeah, I don't wanna do that. Newts encounter other species in the wild and even now I have a tropical fish in with my three newts and they'r best friends.
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While this is true there are many factors that make this a bad choice for the home aquarium. For one the sheer amount of water in the wild dwarfs anything we can provide. Aquatic animals have a large amount of space available to them and if stressed or antagonized by another animal they have space to escape which is not possible in an aquarium. They are also able to find the microhabitat with corresponding temperature, lighting, etc that cannot be reproduced in a small glass box.

I doubt your animals are best friends. They are not social with other species (newts are not social at all.) In fact if you are keeping newts at tropical temperatures you will have problems with them eventually. If you are keeping your fish cool you will have the same problems. They will be more susceptible to stress and more likely to contract diseases.

I'm a strong proponent of multi-species enclosures and nothing will change that aside from a bloody-masacre caused by one docile species murdering a second docile species (won't be adding any Ciclids to my newt tank any time soon)
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Well, it sounds like I won't disuade you, but it is not as simple as bloody massacres. The effects are far more subtle and result in animals that may live a decently long time but are more susceptible to disease and the effects of bad water quality or any other vagaries of aquarium existence. Stress from inadequeate conditions reduces immune response and general adaptability.

The other thing is no one does water changes in the forest, that job is done by the food web which I aim at creating a small representation of every time I begin a new aquarium.
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Well, nature does water changes in the forest. Water flows out of lakes and moves through rivers. There is evaporation and rainfall. Not to mention there are millions of microorganisms including nematodes, protozoa, algae and bacteria that are all responsible for nutrient recycling. Trying to reproduce this in the tiny space available to an aquarist is impossible.
 
I'm more or less neutral on the species mixing subject, but as for an algae problem. Ramshorn snails don't eat plants, are good at controling brown algae, but don't touch the green hair. I've had little success with hair algae and animal controls. I used to add ghost shrimp occasionally to feed my axi. They ate some hair algae, but never lasted long enough to do dent the algae population. By far the best control I've had was lowering light exposure, maintaining robust plants, and changing the water. Sometimes, I curse it, but that doesn't seem to work either.
 
Yes cursing is ineffective, but cathartic as all hell



As far as my Gourami is concerned, he's ok with temperatures as low as 65 f which is what I maintain my tank at. I still do daily water changes and constant maintenance, i just find it hard to believe I can't manage amphibians as part of a community tank. I'm gonna try, believe that(the success I am having with the gourami living side-by-side with my three firebellies is enough for me regarding confidence boosters)
 
"An amazing thing, the human brain. Capable of understanding incredibly complex and intricate concepts. Yet at times unable to recognize the obvious and simple."

Jay Abraham
 
Beej said:
I'm a strong proponent of multi-species enclosures and nothing will change that aside from a bloody-masacre caused by one docile species murdering a second docile species
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You come from a background of fish-keeping, where this makes sense. However, consider that all adult amphibians are carnivores that love to eat live food. There aren't really any completely "docile" ones. I was keeping two of the most-docile newt species together for a while (eastern newts and Japanese firebellies). There was no carnage, but I can tell you that I saw a number of behaviors (territorial and hostile gestures) that I have never seen during many years of keeping these species separately. Species mixing is a stress factor, even when there is no massacre.

We've had numerous lengthy discussions of the whole "species mixing" thing. I'd recommend you do a search for this and read through the old threads. No point rehashing the same hash.
 
we certainly can't be re-hashing the same hash, that would be far too much hashing, especially when it's the same hash being hashed as before,,

but seriously...

I keep 4 freshwater shrimps and 3 minnows in with 2 hongkongensis, although this is in a 30 gallon tank which is heavily planted and has alot of intricate hiding places and cover, (I hardly ever see the shrimps) I dont think the newts care at all about the minnows, I sometimes wonder if they even know they are there...
 
lims said:
we certainly can't be re-hashing the same hash, that would be far too much hashing, especially when it's the same hash being hashed as before,,

but seriously...

I keep 4 freshwater shrimps and 3 minnows in with 2 hongkongensis, although this is in a 30 gallon tank which is heavily planted and has alot of intricate hiding places and cover, (I hardly ever see the shrimps) I dont think the newts care at all about the minnows, I sometimes wonder if they even know they are there...
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An audible gasp escaped the caudat community just now!!lol


yeah, I'm sure i could get away with it in the right aquarium setup. Glad to see you are!
 
Beej said:
An audible gasp escaped the caudat community just now!!lol


yeah, I'm sure i could get away with it in the right aquarium setup. Glad to see you are!
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And that may well be the key: "getting away with it". We can make choices, some turn out disasterous, some ok but not in the best interest of the animals...but as we are the 'keepers' and caretakers, we need to make prudent choices that are optimal for the animals. As captives, they deserve that much from us.

I agree with Jennewt, that newts (carnivores) are not the same as fish. There are different species of fish that can easily co-exist.....but there are also species of fish you would never mix.
 
im not the "newt expert" but i have a firebelly newt in a ten gallon with guppies and he is just fine with it i have have had shrimp in there too and he was fine.i think if guppies can do it in a ten and the newt can too a pleco or shrimp would work.
 
More luck than judgement and so far so good are phraes that spring to mind whenever species mixing is advocated or defended. Why do this? You wouldn't put your cat in a washing machine just because it looked interesting.
 
ragon said:
im not the "newt expert" but i have a firebelly newt in a ten gallon with guppies and he is just fine with it i have have had shrimp in there too and he was fine.i think if guppies can do it in a ten and the newt can too a pleco or shrimp would work.
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Guppies can do well at cooler temperatures and so can white cloud mountain minnows and I'm sure a few other fish as well. This thread was about algae eating animals in particular. The majority of shrimp are tropical and will not do well at cooler temperatures.

The same is true of the majority of algae eating catfish (which are usually armored sucker mouth catfish, Loricariidae.) Plecos, which are Loricariidae, are particularily bad choices as they are tropical, most of them grow large (6-24") and some of them don't even eat algae. The common pleco is also well known for eating the slime coat of slow moving fish like goldfish. Imagine what they would do to a newt! Plecos are also territorial with conspecifics and I wouldn't be surprised if they showed some aggression towards other bottom dwelling animals in their aquarium.

The smallest Loricariidae, the Otocinclus catfishes, are also a horrible choice because they are quite small and could easily be partially ingested by a bold newt. These fish are equiped with large dorsal and pectoral spines which they deploy when eaten. The newt would choke and the fish would be asphxyiated because it is nearly impossible to extract the fish. Otocinclus have killed adult angel fish (Pterophyllum) in this way and there is a nice picture of a paddle-tail being pierced in this way on the forum.

There are fish that can live with newts. I never said there were not. I just know of no algae eating fish (or shrimps, though I know far less about them) that would do well at common caudate temperatures. I also do not believe that fish or shrimp should be relied upon for algae removal or control. Good water maintenance is the most effective means of doing so and fish should be chosen for compatibility with their role as cleanup a secondary consideration.

I personally think a person should keep newts alone when they first begin to keep them as it allows the owner to see basic behaviours of the animal and to understand what is normal and what is abnormal. Then if you add appropriate fish you will have a better idea if your newt is acting stressed or not. Newts, being carnivores, can have a bigger impact on water quality than most omnivorous fish so keeping them alone helps keeps their water parameters in line. Especially if you are feeding frozen foods.

Beej, I would think twice about that gourami. If you check out Fishbase.org for gourami you will find that none of them (or at least the common ones I checked) have an optimal temperature range that extends below 22C (72F).
 
Has anyone tried to keep Nerite snails (the ultimate aquarium cleaner) in a newt or frog tank? What I've read indicates that they are unable to breed in freshwater because the snail larvae require a salt or brackish water phase, and I haven't seen much to indicate that they could not be kept with amphibians even in slightly cooler waters. They also do not have that "trap door" that could catch newt digits and injure them. I ask because I've been considering moving a couple snails into my fire bellied toad vivarium, but haven't seen or heard of any such pairings.

Also, as far as replicating a natural habitat for any creature, newts are not found in the same places as gouramis or plecos or most other fish. If a replicate biotope is what you're after, I would research the places in which your newts are found and the other creatures that are found in such regions. My guess is there won't be much aside from newt's prey and predators.
 
Abrahm said:
Guppies can do well at cooler temperatures and so can white cloud mountain minnows and I'm sure a few other fish as well. This thread was about algae eating animals in particular. The majority of shrimp are tropical and will not do well at cooler temperatures.

The same is true of the majority of algae eating catfish (which are usually armored sucker mouth catfish, Loricariidae.) Plecos, which are Loricariidae, are particularily bad choices as they are tropical, most of them grow large (6-24") and some of them don't even eat algae. The common pleco is also well known for eating the slime coat of slow moving fish like goldfish. Imagine what they would do to a newt! Plecos are also territorial with conspecifics and I wouldn't be surprised if they showed some aggression towards other bottom dwelling animals in their aquarium.

The smallest Loricariidae, the Otocinclus catfishes, are also a horrible choice because they are quite small and could easily be partially ingested by a bold newt. These fish are equiped with large dorsal and pectoral spines which they deploy when eaten. The newt would choke and the fish would be asphxyiated because it is nearly impossible to extract the fish. Otocinclus have killed adult angel fish (Pterophyllum) in this way and there is a nice picture of a paddle-tail being pierced in this way on the forum.

There are fish that can live with newts. I never said there were not. I just know of no algae eating fish (or shrimps, though I know far less about them) that would do well at common caudate temperatures. I also do not believe that fish or shrimp should be relied upon for algae removal or control. Good water maintenance is the most effective means of doing so and fish should be chosen for compatibility with their role as cleanup a secondary consideration.

I personally think a person should keep newts alone when they first begin to keep them as it allows the owner to see basic behaviours of the animal and to understand what is normal and what is abnormal. Then if you add appropriate fish you will have a better idea if your newt is acting stressed or not. Newts, being carnivores, can have a bigger impact on water quality than most omnivorous fish so keeping them alone helps keeps their water parameters in line. Especially if you are feeding frozen foods.

Beej, I would think twice about that gourami. If you check out Fishbase.org for gourami you will find that none of them (or at least the common ones I checked) have an optimal temperature range that extends below 22C (72F).
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I have and if you do further research you'll find that safe temperatures can go as low as 65 f.

Honestly my cool water Gourami has been at this temperature for 5 months and is now healthier than my tropical temperatured gouramis in apearance, feeding habits and skin condition. Goes to show that optimal temperatures can be used as a guideline within reason
 
I think that keeping a gourami with newts is asking for trouble. They are known to pick at other fish...and newts are very easy targets for this. I've briefly kept newts with fish, but have noticed that if a newt gets a wound for any reason(whether it is a sore on a new newt, or a bite wound during a feeding frenzy) fish(even little "nice" fish like guppies) will often nip at it and make it worse, and possibly cause it to become infected. Newts usually try to avoid fish in the wild...many are adapted to seeking out and utilizing habitats without fish to compete with them.

I have ramshorn snails in all my newt tanks...by default. They are harmless, and if your tank doesn't have enough food they will not grow to plague proportions. They do a good job with leftover food. I've heard people claim they will eat the skin slime of axolotls, but I haven't seen this behavior with newts. Nerite snails are probably fine with FBT's. One thing to note is that snails are known to be intermediate hosts for all the manner of parasites, so I would stay away from collecting them for your tanks.
 
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