Axies in the LA area?

seems like most of the folks on this forum are from Australia but I have a nice big 25 gallon aquarium and have been thinking about getting an axolotl. I now live in Los Angeles California and was wondering if anyone on the site knows of any places that sell axies. Also an unrelated question..i have a 3.5 inch albino african clawed frog, can they get along with axolotls? I figure if i put them together he might get eaten or try and bite the gills of the salamander. (i dont think he can do damage because he has no teeth) Thanks a lot for any help.

Sorry Bloodyssamflint, axolotls are illegal in California.

oh yeah? thats sad i'm surprised since i know you can get them in other states. I figured they would be pretty common. Thanks though.

Interesting we can't have rabbits here in Brisbane but it's possible to drive interstate and rive over the boarder with them. Can you do that or do you have people who check your car over the boarders?

axolotls are illegal in California because of its ability to mate with the native Tiger salamander. You don't drive through borders in the US. People can travel interstate and bring whatever species they want, wherever they want.

MistressOfAxies said:

Interesting we can't have rabbits here in Brisbane but it's possible to drive interstate and rive over the boarder with them. Can you do that or do you have people who check your car over the boarders?

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That is possible, but I dont know if we should encourage people to break the law. It can very easily be done, but you can also just as easily be caught, and if you where to be caught it would definately not have been worth the drive.

And no, an african clawed frog would not be able to be housed with an axolotl unless you had plans for having just a big, happy axolotl with a full belly. And African clawed frogs are also illegal here because of all the negative effects on the local wildlife.

Does anyone really monitor that law though? I mean, other than in pet stores - it seems like it would be extremely easy/low risk to send eggs over the mail. I doubt the US Post Office does routine axolotl egg checks. Not to be disrespecting the law or anything

krk11 said:

axolotls are illegal in California because of its ability to mate with the native Tiger salamander. You don't drive through borders in the US. People can travel interstate and bring whatever species they want, wherever they want.

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State line agricultural inspections? California cracks down on those places. You have to know what time of day it is safe to pass those if you where ILLEGALLY SMUGGLING animals here. And keep in mind that those people can search your vehicle whenever they want. If anyone could, infact, "travel interstate and bring whatever species they want, wherever they want" then what good are all these laws?

I'm not trying to say that I'm the kind of person who ALWAYS obeys the law, but I'm aware of the law and the consequnces of bringing in illegal animals, and so are most of the people who bring in animals, like axolotls, into this state. So before you go and give someone the impression that it is okay or even legal to bring "whatever species they want" into California, please get better aquainted with the law, because it's not you that would be at risk.

As far as the law being any good - I can think of a few choice laws involving illegal posession that are broken religiously at my high school. Not to get off subject, but Seattle has a "hempfest" every year and people light up in front of the police and everyone just sort of ignores the fact that weed is illegal for a few days. Haha what good is that law! I'm curious now, though - what are the penalties of smuggling an animal like an axolotl into Cali?

I did drive across state lines when moving to cali, there is a checkpoint on the cali border however no one was manning the post at the time. Usually they are checking for drugs and 'illegal' immigrants i doubt they would say much about animals or fruit. Does anyone know of any other purely aquatic salamanders that are legal in CA?

I don't think the "penalty" is what really matters here. If people ignore the law and bring axolotls into California the native California tiger salamander could be in trouble. If people don't want their animal anymore and release them into the wild the whole species could begin to cross breed and create hybrids. I live in Hawaii and only a few species are allowed here with a permit. I learned to live with it, and just get the species that are legal here.

DosJax 12XU said:

State line agricultural inspections? California cracks down on those places. You have to know what time of day it is safe to pass those if you where ILLEGALLY SMUGGLING animals here. And keep in mind that those people can search your vehicle whenever they want. If anyone could, infact, "travel interstate and bring whatever species they want, wherever they want" then what good are all these laws?

I'm not trying to say that I'm the kind of person who ALWAYS obeys the law, but I'm aware of the law and the consequnces of bringing in illegal animals, and so are most of the people who bring in animals, like axolotls, into this state. So before you go and give someone the impression that it is okay or even legal to bring "whatever species they want" into California, please get better aquainted with the law, because it's not you that would be at risk.

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I did not condone the "smuggling" of illegal animals into a state where it is illegal. Did'nt I say axolotls are illegal in California? I live in Hawaii, want to talk about laws.

Yes that is true that you did say they were illegal, But it is also true that BloodySamFlint did NOT know that they where illegal. I don't think it's safe to say with so much confidence that you can "travel interstate with whatever species...etc." because you CAN get caught. Even though the chances of getting caught may be close to slim, I don't think its safe to give the impression that it's legal to import or possess them here, which couldeasily been taken from your choice of words ("whatever species...wherever").

And no, I don't want to degrade myself on in educational organisation (such as this one) by making this into a compitition.

I actually think krk11 was pointing out that people do it anyway with that comment about "whatever species they want, wherever they wan" ... despite the ban. krk11 has continually pointed out the illegality of bringing in axolotls to California too!

Saspotato said:

I actually think krk11 was pointing out that people do it anyway with that comment about "whatever species they want, wherever they wan" ... despite the ban. krk11 has continually pointed out the illegality of bringing in axolotls to California too!

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Okay, thank you, Sarah, for putting this into another perspective.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that axolotls are legal in Ca. However, they are illegal to import to Ca. If they were bred within the state they are legal to sell within the state.

I first decided I wanted one a few months ago because I saw one for sale at a local pet store for $50. I decided to go online and do some research about them first and see if I could find a breeder online. I found this forum along with other sources and if i wanted an axolotl, I would have to find one locally.

I don't know how California operates but if you rang up your california council or your lord mayor's office you'd probably get a straight answer.

Okay, I was curious how things have changed since I last researched this matter. I looked up the current 2007 CA laws on the subject. Listed below from the Fish and Game website www.dfg.ca.gov. How's your legalese? Safest bet, seems you're not allowed to own/traffic them .... Although the statement "All species of the genus Ambystoma (tiger salamanders)-D" Isn't the most clear. Does this mean tigrinum, mavortium, californiense, etc. or all Ambystoma. I regularly see Axolotls, Blue-spotted, spotted, and marbled salamanders in pet stores. Axolotls aren't considered "Tiger salamanders", and I'm also unaware of any reports of Axolotls interbreeding with CA tigers.

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Section 671, Title 14, CCR is amended to read:
§671. Importation, Transportation and Possession of Live Restricted Animals.
(a) It shall be unlawful to import, transport, or possess alive animals restricted in subsection (c)below except under permit issued by the Department of Fish and Game. Permits may be issued by the department as specified herein and for purposes designated in Section 671.1 subject to the conditions and restrictions designated by the department. Except for mammals listed in Fish and Game Code Section 3950 or live aquatic animals requiring a permit pursuant to Fish and Game Code Section 2271, no permit is required by this section for any animal being imported, transported, or possessed pursuant to any other permit issued by the department. Cities and counties may also prohibit possession or require a permit for these and other species not requiring a state permit.
(b) The commission has determined the below listed animals are not normally domesticated in this state. Mammals listed to prevent the depletion of wild populations and to provide for animal welfare are termed "welfare animals", and are designated by the letter "W". Those species listed because they pose a threat to native wildlife, the agriculture interests of the state or to public health or safety are termed "detrimental animals" and are designated by the letter "D". The department shall include the list of welfare and detrimental wild animals as part of DFG MANUAL NO. 671 (2/25/92) IMPORTATION, TRANSPORTATION AND POSSESSION OF RESTRICTED SPECIES, to be made available to all permittees and other interested individuals.
(c) Restricted species include:
(1) Class Aves -Birds
(A) Family Alaudidae -Larks
Alauda arvensis (Skylark) (D).
(B) Family Cuculidae -Cuckoos
All species (D).
(C) Family Corvidae -Crows, Ravens, Rooks, Jackdaws
All species (D).
(D) Family Turdidae -Thrushes, Blackbirds, Fieldfare
1. Turdus merula (European blackbird) (D).
2. Turdus viscivorus (Missel thrush) (D).
3. Turdus pilaris (Fieldfare) (D).
4. Turdus musicus (Song thrush) (D).
(E) Family Sturnidae -Starlings, Mynahs
All species (D), except Sturnus vulgaris (Starling), Gracula religiosa or Eulabes religiosa (Hill mynahs), and Leucopsar rothschildi (Rothchild's mynah) are not restricted.
(F) Family Ploceidae -Sparrows, Weavers, Queleas
1. Genus Passer (Sparrow)
All species (D), except Passer domesticus (English house sparrow) is not restricted.
2. Foudia madagascariensis (Madagascar weaver) (D).
3. Ploceus baya (Baya weaver) (D).
4. Genus Quelea (Queleas) -All species (D).
(G) Family Estrildidae -Waxbills, Munias, Ricebirds
1. Padda oryzivora (Java sparrow) (D).
(H) Family Emberizidae -Yellowhammer
Emberiza citrinella (Yellowhammer) (D).
(I) Order Falconiformes -Falcons, Eagles, Hawks, Vultures
1. Vultures All species (D)
2. Falcons, Eagles, Hawks (D)
All species (D)
(J) Order Strigiformes -Owls
All species (D)
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(K) Family Pyconotidae -Bulbuls or Fruit Thrushes
Pycnonotus jocosus (Red-whiskered bulbul) (D).
(L) Family Zosteropidae -Whiteeyes
Genus Zosterops (Whiteeyes) -All species (D).
(M) Family Psittacidae -Parrots, Parakeets
Myiopsitta monachus (Monk or Quaker parakeet) (D).
(N) Family Anatidae (ducks, geese, and swans)
1. Cygnus olor (Mute Swan) (D)
a. No State permit is required for mute swans possessed prior to January 1, 2008.
(2) Class Mammalia -Mammals
(A) Order Primates -Monkeys, Apes
All species (W), except Family Hominidae -not restricted.
(B) Order Edendata -Sloths, Anteaters, Armadillos, etc.
All species:
1. Family Dasypodidae -Armadillos -All Species (D).
2. Family Bradypodidae -Sloths -(W).
3. Family Myrmecophagidae -Anteaters -(W).
(C) Order Marsupialia -Marsupials or Pouched Animals
All species (W).
(D) Order Insectivora -Shrews, Moles, Hedgehogs, etc.
All species (D).
(E) Order Dermoptera -Gliding Lemurs
All species (D).
(F) Order Chiroptera -Bats
All species (D).
(G) Order Monotremata -Spiny Anteaters, Platypuses
All Species (W).
(H) Order Pholidota -Pangolins or Scaly Anteaters
All species (W).
(I) Order Lagomorpha -Pikas, Rabbits, and Hares
All species, (D), except domesticated races of rabbits and hares of the Family Leporidae -not restricted.
(J) Order Rodentia -Hamsters, Field Mice, Voles, Muskrats, Gerbils, Squirrels, Chipmunks, Woodchucks, and Prairie Dogs
1. All species (D), except:
a. Ondatra zibethica (Muskrats) -Not restricted under conditions set forth in Fish and Game Code Section 2250;
b. Domesticated races of golden hamsters of the species Mesocricetus auratus and domesticated races of dwarf hamsters of the Genus Phodopus not restricted;
c. Domesticated races of rats or mice (white or albino; trained, dancing or spinning, laboratory-reared) not restricted;
d. Domesticated races of guinea pigs of the species Cavia porcellus not restricted; and
e. Domesticated races of chinchillas of the species Chinchilla laniger not restricted.
(K) Order Carnivora -Raccoons, Ringtailed Cats, Kinkajous, Coatis, Cacomistles, Weasels, Ferrets, Skunks, Polecats, Stoats, Mongoose, Civets, Wolves, Foxes, Coyotes, Lions, Tigers, Ocelots, Bobcats, Servals, Leopards, Jaguars, Cheetahs, Bears, etc.
1. Family Felidae -All species (W) except:
a. Acinonyx jubatus (cheetahs) -(D).
b. Domestic cats and hybrids of domestic cats are not restricted.
2. Family Canidae -All species (W).
a. Wolf hybrids Canis familiaris (domestic dog) x Canis lupus (wolf).
i. Any F1 (first) generation wolf hybrid whelped on or before February 4, 1988 may be possessed under permit from the department.
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ii. No state permit is required to possess the progeny of F1 generation wolf hybrids, but cities and counties may prohibit possession or require a permit.
b. Domesticated dogs are not restricted.
3. Family Viverridae -All species (D).
4. Family Procyonidae -All species -(D), except:
a. Ailuris fulgens (Lesser Panda) -(W).
b. Aiuropoda melanoleuca (Giant panda) -(W).
c. Bassariscus astutus (Ringtail or Ringtailed cat) -(W).
d. Jentinkia sumichrasti (Mexican and Central American Cacomistle) -(W).
5. Family Mustelidae -All species (D), except:.
a. Ambloynx cinerea (Oriental small-clawed otter) -(W).
b. Aonyx capensis (African clawless otter) -(W).
c. Pteronura brasiliensis (Giant otter) -(W).
d. All species of Genus Lutra (River otters) -(W).
6. All others -(W).
(L) Order Tubulidentata -Aardvarks
All species -(W).
(M) Order Proboscidae -Elephants
All species -(W).
(N) Order Hyracoidae -Hyraxes
All species -(W).
(O) Order Sirenia -Dugongs, Manatees
All species -(W).
(P) Order Perissodactyla -Horses, Zebras, Tapirs, Rhinoceroses, etc.
All species (W), except Family Equidae is not restricted.
(Q) Order Artiodactyla -Swine, Peccaries, Camels, Deer, Elk, Moose, Antelopes, Cattle, Goats, Sheep, etc.

All species (D) except:
1. Bos taurus and Bos indicus (Domestic cattle); Bos grunniens (Yak); Bubalus bulalis (Asian water buffalo); Ovis aries (Domestic sheep); Capra hircus (Domestic goat); Sus scrofa domestica (Domestic swine); Llama glama (Llama); Llama pacos (Alpaca); Llama guanicoe (Guanaco); Hybrids of llama, alpaca and guanacos; Camelus bactrianus and Camelus dromedarius (Camels); and Bison bison (American bison), are not restricted.
2. Permits may be issued for species of Elk (Genus Cervus) which are already maintained within California; and
3. Permits may be issued pursuant to Section 676, Title 14, CCR, for importing, breeding, slaughter and sale of the meat and other parts of fallow deer (Dama dama) for commercial purposes.
(3) Class Amphibia -Frogs, Toads, Salamanders
(A) Family Bufonidae -Toads
Bufo marinus, Bufo paracnemis, Bufo horribilis (Giant toad or marine toad group) and all other large toads from Mexico and Central and South America-(D).
(B) Family Pipidae -Tongueless Toads
All species of the Genus Xenopus-(D).
(C) Family Ambystomatidae-Mole Salamanders
All species of the genus Ambystoma (tiger salamanders)-D
(D) Family Leptodactylidae -Neotropical Frogs
Eleutherodactylus coqui -Common Coqui or Coqui frog (D).
(4) Class Agnatha -Jawless Fishes
(A) Family Petromyzontidae -Lampreys
All nonnative species (D).
(5) Class Osteichthyes -Bony Fishes
(A) Family Percichthyidae -Temperate Basses
1. The species Morone americana (White perch) (D).
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2. The species Morone chrysops (White bass) (D).
(B) Family Clupeidae -Herrings
Dorosoma cepedianum (Gizzard shad) (D).
(C) Family Sciaenidae -Drums
Aplodinotus grunniens (freshwater drum) (D).
(D) Family Characidae -Characins
1. Astyanax fasciatus (Banded tetra) (D).
2. All species of the genera Serrasalmus, Serrasalmo, Pygocentrus, Taddyella, Rooseveltiella, and Pygopristis (Piranhas) (D).
3. Hoplias malabaricus (Tiger fish) (D).
(E) Family Salmonidae -Trouts
Salmo salar (Atlantic salmon) -Restricted in the Smith River watershed (D).
(F) Family Lepisosteidae -Gars
All species (D).
(G) Family Amiidae -Bowfins
All species (D).
(H) Family Poeciliidae -Livebearers
Belonesox belizanus (Pike killifish) (D).
(I) Family Channidae -Snakeheads
All species (D).
(J) Family Cyprinidae -Carps and Minnows
1. Leuciscus idus (ide)(D).
2. Ctenopharyngodon idellus (Grass carp) (D), except that permits may be issued to a person, organization or agency for possession of triploid grass carp, under conditions set forth in Section 238.6, Title 14, CCR.
3. Hypophthalmichthys molitrix (Silver carp) (D).
4. Aristichthys nobilis (Bighead carp) (D).
5. Hypophthalmichthys harmandi (Largescale Silver carp) (D).
6. Mylopharyngodon piceus (Black carp) (D).
(K) Family Trichomycteridae (Pygidiidae) -Parasitic Catfishes.
All species (D).
(L) Family Cetopsidae -Whalelike Catfishes.
All species (D).
(M) Family Clariidae -Labyrinth Catfishes
All species of the genera Clarias, Dinotopterus, and Heterobranchus (D).
(N) Family Heteropneustidae (Saccobranchidae) -Airsac Catfishes
All species (D).
(O) Family Cichlidae -Cichlids
1. Tilapia sparrmani (Banded Tilapia) (D).
2. Tilapia zilli (Redbelly tilapia) (D), except permits may be issued to a person or agency for importation, transportation, or possession in the counties of San Bernardino, Los Angeles, Orange, Riverside, San Diego, and Imperial.
3. Tilapia aurea (Blue tilapia) (D).
4. Tilapia nilotica (Nile tilapia) (D).
(P) Family Anguillidae -Freshwater Eels.
All species of genus Anguilla (D).
(Q) Family Esocidae -Pikes all species (D).
(R) Family Percidae -Perches
1. Perca flavescens (Yellow perch) (D).
2. Stizostedion vitreum (Walleye) (D).
(S) Family Catostomidae -Suckers
All members of the genus Ictiobus (Buffalos) (D).
(T) Family Cyprinodontidae-Killifishes
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Cyprinodon variegatus (Sheepshead minnow) (D).
(U) Family Latidae -Lates perches
Lates calcarifer (Barramundi also know as Barramundi perch or Silver barramundi) (D).
(6) Class Elasmobranchiomorphi -Cartilaginous Fishes
(A) Family Carcharhinidae -Requiem Sharks
All species of genus Carcharhinus (Freshwater sharks) (D).
(B) Family Potamotrygonidae -River stingrays
All species (D).
(7) Class Reptilia -Reptiles
(A) Order Crocodilia -Crocodiles, Caimans, Alligators and Gavials
All species (D).
(B) Family Chelyridae -Snapping Turtles
All species (D).
(C) Family Elapidae -Cobras, Coral Snakes, Mambas, Kraits, etc.
All species (D).
(D) Family Viperidae -Adders and Vipers
All species (D).
(E) Family Crotalidae -Pit Vipers
All species (D), except Crotalus viridis (Western rattlesnake), Crotalus atrox (Western diamondback rattlesnake), Crotalus ruber (red diamondback rattlesnake), Crotalus scutulatus (Mojave rattlesnake), Crotalus mitchelli (speckled rattlesnake) and Crotalus cerastes (Sidewinder) not restricted.
(F) Family Colubridae -Colubrids
1. Dispholidus typus (Boomslang) (D).
2. Theoltornis kitlandii (Bird or vine snake) (D).
3. All species of genus Nerodia (watersnakes) (D).
(G) Family Helodermatidae
1. Heloderma suspectum suspectum (reticulate Gila monster) (D).
(8) Class Crustacea -Crustaceans
(A) All species of Family Cambaridae -Crayfish, etc. (D), except Procambarus clarkii and Orconectes virilis not restricted.
(B) All species of genus Eriocheir (D).
(9) Class Gastropoda -Slugs, Snails
(A) Potamopyrgus antipodarum (New Zealand mudsnail)
(B) All nonnative species of slugs and land snails (D), except:
1. Rumina decollata (decollate snail) in the counties of San Bernardino, Riverside, Imperial, Orange, San Diego, Los Angeles, Ventura, Kern, Fresno, Madera, Tulare and Santa Barbara not restricted with the concurrence of the appropriate county agricultural commissioners.
2. Helix aspersa (brown garden snail) not prohibited.
(C) Pomacea canaliculata (Channeled Apple Snail) (D)
(D) All species of genus Haliotis (Abalone) (D), except Haliotis rufescens (Red abalone), Haliotis sorenseni (White abalone), Haliotis corrugate (Pink abalone), Haliotis fulgens (Green abalone), Haliotis cracherodii (Black abalone), Haliotis kamtschatkana (Pinto abalone), Haliotis walallensis (Flat abalone) and Haliotis assimilis (Threaded abalone) are not restricted.
1. Note: Unpermitted nonnative abalone are determined to be detrimental to native populations, therefore the exemptions provided in Fish and Game Code subsection 2271(b) and subsection 236(b), Title14, CCR, are not applicable.
(10) Class Bivalvia-Bivalves
All members of the genus Dreissena (zebra mussels) -(D).
(11) Transgenic Aquatic Animals.
Includes freshwater and marine fishes, invertebrates, crustaceans, mollusks, amphibians, and reptiles (D). Note: Unpermitted transgenic aquatic animals are determined to be detrimental to native wildlife, therefore the exemption provided for in Fish and Game Code Section 2150(e) is not applicable.
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Note: Authority cited: Sections 2118 and 2120, Fish and Game Code. Reference: Sections 1002, 2116, 2118, 2118.2, 2118.4, 2119-2155, 2119, 2120, 2122, 2123, 2124, 2125, 2126, 2127, 2150, 2190, 2271, 3005.9 and 3005.92, Fish and Game Code.

"All species of the genus Ambystoma (tiger salamanders)-D" again is kind of vague, perhaps to save face, since classifying interbred Califorinia tigers isn't easy. I've heard several different interpretations of this. Anyone dealing with this issue should contact the fish and game department to clarify questions on and individual basis, as I'm sure you'll get different responses from different individuals.

Most importantly for this thread:
- You should not encourage people to break the law, but learn the law.
- If you chose to have a non-native pet, it is extremely irresponsible to release it into the native environment.