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HELP! n00b with limb damaged Firebelly

Dodge

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Hi!
I'm pretty new to this, but I'm kinda stuck...
The wife came home with two Firebelly newts. They were in a small (2g) tank, and all was well for about a week.
Today, I looked in, and saw one had both it's front limbs twisted almost off. The forearms are hanging by a small amount of flesh and skin. Both bones are visible. I immediately separated them.
I read in these forums that for the axolotls, experienced pet owners were successful at amputating and nursing those animals back to health.
I understand that a veterinarian should be the first step, but unfortunately, that is not an option. I live in a very small town, and the vet is... sub-par. Also, the pet store that sold them to her actually told me to kill it. I flat out refuse to do that.
Unfortunately, I have none of the treatment chemicals mentioned in the other threads, but I should (hopefully) be able to get some tomorrow evening, at the earliest.
I have set up a much larger tank, and have increased the feedings after reading several threads here.
My question is... What do you all suggest? I am willing to amputate the broken limbs, but I won't do it without suggestions from more experienced people...
I placed him in a separate tank with distilled water, with a sloped gravel area for him. The water temp is about 45 deg F at the moment. I am planning on putting him in the refrigerator until I get a few replies here... Right now, the fridge is 39 deg F. What temp should I set it at?

Please help. My kids are already attached, and will be heartbroken if this li'l guy doesn't make it...
Thanks in advance... D
PS... In the following image, I highlighted the bones in blue, and the flesh in gray. The forearms are tucked under his body in that image.
 

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Lasher

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My question is... What do you all suggest? I am willing to amputate the broken limbs, but I won't do it without suggestions from more experienced people...

I'm far from the most experienced person on these forums, but have been in the same situation in the past(one of my first fire bellied newts, got its leg caught in the filter a tore it open - its tank mates bit it off).
I fridged it for a few days in RO water(5 degrees), 100% water changes with same temp water and nothing else in the tub. Change tub every day, cleaned with a dilute antiseptic(I cant recall what it was, sorry).
After 5 days with no signs of improvement I decided to amputate the limb. Forceps, scalpel blades and a large ceramic tile to work on were sterilised by a friend with access to an autoclave, who also provided latex and chemical free surgical gloves(befriend a piercer, tattooist or some who does flesh removal/scarification - handy for supplies and equipment).
The newt was taken straight from the fridge and anesthetised by full submersion in a chlorbutol solution(I think it was 0.4%, but again dont quote me on that - it was several years ago). The limb was cut back(one clean cut), the limb disinfected then straight back in the fridge under the same conditions.

Within 2 days skin growth fully covered the wound, in 2 weeks a tiny limb was forming, at which point he was moved back to room temp isolation. 2-3 months later he was absolutley fine with all the right limbs and digits in the right place.

I have to stress that home surgery is really not ideal and should be a last resort, I'm hoping someone here can give you a more accurate account of exactly what to use chemicaly speaking - I've been wracking my brains for half an hour writing this, it was just too long ago.
 

Dodge

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Thanks so much for the info... I will be raising the temp of the fridge to...41deg F(if my conversion is correct), and keeping him in there for a few more days, waiting for more replies...

Lasher said:
...(befriend a piercer, tattooist or some who does flesh removal/scarification - handy for supplies and equipment)...
I happen to be a tattoo artist, and have an autoclave, gloves, etc.! :-D
 

keechoo

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I placed him in a separate tank with distilled water

Maybe it's just for Firebelly toads, but doesn't distilled water have a negative affect on them? Tap water that has been dechlorinated and spring water are okay. I only use spring water for my toads and newts.
 

Jennewt

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What Lasher describes is reasonable, although I agree with Nicole that distilled or RO water should not be used. Treated tap water kept clean should be fine.

Do you have any idea what caused this? Sometimes newly-imported newts will lose limbs due to limb rot, but this seems like it was more sudden. Do the newts have live food? (If not, the other newt might have done the damage). Any non-newt tankmates? Are the 2 newts the same size?
 

Dodge

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They are the same size (we actually had trouble telling them apart...), and they are being fed small crickets. There are no other animals in the tank, and it was very sudden. the limbs look like they got twisted at the elbow until they gave out. I think underfeeding was the issue. Possibly some stress as well.

As for the water, thanks for the link... That helps...
Unfortunately, my tap water is from a well, and the PH is over 9.0! So, off to the supermarket I go.... I'm going to buy several brands of spring water, and I'll test the ph in each.
 

audrey

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I am not sure that you need to amputate if there is no infection on the wounds. In fact the amputation may cause more stress to an animal that is already unhealthy. The fact that the whole back bone is showing is not a good sign. I would definately isolate the newt and keep it in shallow clean water- as already spoken of - with a plant for it to hide in, in a cool, but also dark place and see if it begins to heal at all on it's own. Do regular water changes and try to find a better food source. Check for blackworms but if you can't find those chopping nightcrawler in very small pieces and feeding them with a toothpick or tweezers is a better option than crickets.
You may not need to refrigerate unless you are trying to prevent infection or are convinsed that an amputation is needed, otherwise that kind of very cold temps can decrease your newt's appetite and it needs to be eating right now. Good luck.
 

Dodge

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So far, there doesn't appear to be any infection... The skin looks healthy, and the newt seems pretty good... I have changed the water to spring water that has a ph of about 6.8-6.9... And I was careful to match the water temperatures. My main reason for refrigerating was to buy time, so I can gather more information. So far, so good!

As for a place for it to hide, what I'm concerned about is the bones. With the way they're sticking out, and with the forearms dangling, it'll probably get hung up a lot. Right now, I have a slightly rumpled piece of paper towel in the tank with him, but he hasn't gone under it... :-/
Any antibiotics I can use?
 

Lasher

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What Lasher describes is reasonable, although I agree with Nicole that distilled or RO water should not be used. Treated tap water kept clean should be fine.

Under normal circumstances I would agree, at the time though I consulted with an experienced herp vet who recommended it untill the skin had healed over the wound. I got my guy back into aged tap water a week or so after the surgery.

Audrey may be right, but looking at the pic you posted I dont think that wounds going to heal over, let alone regenerate the limb, with that much bone sticking out. You would only need to remove the bone thats sticking out along with any badly damaged flesh at the base of the wound. What you would be aiming for is a clean cut back to to healthy tissue to allow healing to begin.

Theres a little info on antibiotics here, http://www.caudata.org/cc/articles/sores.shtml . I've had limited success with tetracycline, havent tried any of the others listed there.
 

newtsrfun

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You seem to be doing everything in a researched, careful way. I would highly reccomend amputation, and if you are going to do it- do it right away, otherwise its just going to try to heal up and take forever, and the newt allready is in semi-poor health. Allthough some go to great lengths with auto-claves and whatnot, a brand new fingernail clipper, boiled in a shallow container, is perfectly fine for this. Make a nice clean chop, about 2 mm down from the end, or at least where the skin looks healthy(does this make sense?). Directly after the cut, the wound SHOULD bleed a little. If it doesn't, then you didn't take enough. TO avoid this, look carefully before you cut, a little extra cut off isn't going to hurt.

And getting the water the right temp shouldn't be a huge concern, newts adapt to temp changes much much better then fish.

A mild salt bath after the amputation is a good idea, I would reccomend that over any antibiotics.

Again, I would d this right away and be done with it, no sense waiting. And try feeding the newt some bloodworms as well as other foods mentioned, you can put half a cube in water with the newt right in front of the head, if you do it slow you might get lucky.
 

Jake

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Under normal circumstances I would agree, at the time though I consulted with an experienced herp vet who recommended it untill the skin had healed over the wound. I got my guy back into aged tap water a week or so after the surgery.

Audrey may be right, but looking at the pic you posted I dont think that wounds going to heal over, let alone regenerate the limb, with that much bone sticking out.

Using RO or distilled water allows necessary ions to escape from the newt's body. Are you sure that you were talking to an experienced herp vet who was educated in the practice of caudate medicine? It's a whole different game than with reptiles.

Also, it doesn't matter how much bone is exposed on a newt's arm, if it is a lot they can just lose the exposed piece of bone over time and grow a new limb. That is, with healthy newts, this one on the other hand had to have been obviously in bad shape to begin with. I've seen axolotls with almost all of the flesh torn off their arm and still regenerate just fine.
 

Lasher

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Using RO or distilled water allows necessary ions to escape from the newt's body. Are you sure that you were talking to an experienced herp vet who was educated in the practice of caudate medicine? It's a whole different game than with reptiles.

Also, it doesn't matter how much bone is exposed on a newt's arm, if it is a lot they can just lose the exposed piece of bone over time and grow a new limb. That is, with healthy newts, this one on the other hand had to have been obviously in bad shape to begin with. I've seen axolotls with almost all of the flesh torn off their arm and still regenerate just fine.

I am indeed sure, the gent in question had been keeping newts as pets for 40 years and a qualified veterinarian for 30. His practice was actualy listed as specialising in the car of 'amphibians and other aquatic species' as well as 'exotic' pets in general(I initialy went there to get my Beardie(R.I.P Magni)wormed, he turned out to be very knowledgeable about caudites). He was a walking talking encyclopedia. I met him at Stonehenge at the summer solstice, bit of a hippie, if it was at all un pleasent or harmful to the animal he'd never do it. He was not suggesting prolonged exposure, and the animal in question was fit and healthy before the accident.

True, in time it will loose the exposed bone, but in my experience the skin will not heal over the exposed flesh fully unless the bone is removed, and thats just inviting infection.

Its my opinion that, in this case, amputation in the near future will allow the wound to heal and the limb regenerate considerably faster. It has to be very uncomfotable for the animal, too, if he were mine waiting for nature to take its course would bother me a great deal.
 
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