Wow...eggs!!!???

Hello everyone,

I just looked in on my new arrivals and found eggs on the floating plants. I had just acquired these animals (Pachytriton labiatus -- "Paddletail Newts") last week and had them together for about a day and then separated them. I had planned to maybe attempt to breed them down the road so I did get a male and female and they were housed mixed at the pet store (and during transport, I assume)...

Anyway, I don't know anything at this point about breeding.

Do caudates in general only lay eggs when they are fertilized or is there a possibility they are infertile? She laid about 10 eggs (no egg mass, just individuals), with a clear jelly and black "yolk" center. (Sorry, no pictures until tomorrow, I'm afraid.)

I'm not overly optimistic about them, and I know these newts have not been breed in captivity, so I don't expect to have viable eggs...but it would be nice if I did.

1) Could they be viable? 2) Are any changes necessary if they are (temp, water)?



Thanks!!!!
Andrea

Keep the eggs in the same conditions as the adults, but get them out of the tank or they will be eaten. The viability of the eggs depends on the species - some species will occasionally lay infertile eggs if not bred, while others will only lay fertile eggs (eg. axolotls will only lay if bred), with some species the first few eggs in a batch or eggs from younger females or more likely to be infertile when they are bred. Also, some species can hold fertile eggs/sperm for a long while after breeding, it's possible that your female already bred in the wild, assuming she was Wild caught, and held her eggs until she was kept in the proper conditions (pet stores often have the temperature to high, not enough plants, or just generally stressful conditions that would cause a female to hold eggs) in your house. Also possible, but I think less likely, she bred in the pet store or during the brief time you kept them together. I don't know too much about this species, but I'd say that you've got a pretty good chance that the eggs are viable, I would separate them from the parents immediately.

You might want to read this:

http://www.caudata.org/cc/articles/raising.shtml

If you don't want to raise the eggs, and at this point I suggest not raising them, you can leave them in with the parents and they will be disposed of (eaten).

In this case, I think it would be best for you to first determine how to take good care of the parents before trying to raise any larvae. It's time-consuming and expensive.

I think I'm going to give them to my herpetology professor if he wants to raise them, otherwise Olivia can eat them. I'm not experienced enough at this point.

Thanks for the information and suggestions.

Andrea

They sound like they could be newt eggs, but I'm not convinced they are paddletail eggs. Did you just acquire the plants? In other words, could the eggs have arrived with the plants? There aren't a lot of records of paddletails laying eggs in captivity, but I think they usually lay on rocks rather than on plants. Please let us know what happens with them. If your prof needs advice on raising them, this article may help:
http://www.caudata.org/cc/articles/raising.shtml

Well, I kept the eggs. I know they were laid by my paddletail, as the plants were fake. The eggs were mostly laid on plants that were floating, with cup-shaped leaves. She laid about 20 eggs before she died the next day, which was why I raised them (the other plan was to see if she ate them.)

I blame her death on stress. It is stressful enough to be uprooted from your habitat and imported halfway across the world, never mind becoming gravid and laying eggs the week you arrive. It's really too bad.

I think she must have had sperm retained from being in the wild as it is unlikely she bred in the conditions she had been kept in, but I have no idea what prompted the egg-laying.

The eggs were laid on 3/29 and started hatching exactly one month later on the 4/29.

I removed the eggs from the plants and kept them in plastic cups suctioned to the glass of a filtered 10 gallon tank. There were about 4 cups. I placed them below the waterline so they had clean moving water but weren't jostled.

8 or so hatched the first day and several more within the next week, totaling about 13. There were quite a few (7?) that did not hatch after the first two weeks. I took them for dead and opened up the egg casing to preserve the embryo inside in alcohol, and I found that one was still alive and had gills and was already developing front legs. I let it go in the water and it seemed to be fine. I left the remaining six eggs in the cups. A month after hatching, I knew something had happened. They seemed perfect and weren't turning white or fuzzy, but I opened the casing up and all were dead. They had even begun to form hind legs, which led me to believe they were simply not able to hatch. Perhaps the stress of the mother was a factor in this, as a good proportion were lost this way...about 6/20.


The newly-hatched larvae were kept in a substrate-free ten gallon tank with hiding places (flower pots, small PVC pipes, the plastic plants...) and I put a nylon stocking over the filter so they wouldn't get sucked in. They were fed daphnia caught from a vernal pool within a few days of first hatching.

Well, many have died between then and now. I am not sure what happened. It must have been the setup and it seemed like it might have been too big for them. I moved the three that did survive into a 2.5 gallon tank last month and they are now doing very well. They are growing noticeably every day. I've been able to have a steady supply of blackworms in their tank. They aren't big enough to eat them whole, but they nibble on the tips. I think worms are regenerating, too because I've had the same clump of worms in the tank for 3 weeks (the tips on the worms are pink so it's probably the regrown bit?)


I don't have a camera that's good enough to take quality pictures. I would have liked to document their embryonic development, but sadly it's too late. I will most likely be able to take pictures tomorrow and will post them. I was prompted by Jennewt to update this thread after posting on how the newts are completely transparent at night but are fully pigmented during the day. Cool P. labitaus larval fact, I guess.


Oh, yes, my tank is at 60 degrees F, sometimes lower. I keep it directly in front of the A/C which is running 24/7. They are stream-type newts and I wanted to recreate the current so I put the ten gallon filter in the 2.5 gallon tank. I was concerned at first about the heat generated by the filter, but it hasn't been a problem. They are sheltered from being whirlpooled around by the current, and the aeration seems to be working very well for them.

Phew! This is getting long. I hope this might be helpful to someone...I was disappointed to lose so many, but I'm very confident that these three will make it. I don't have the time to proof-read this, so if you need something clarified, I will try.

Thanks!
Andrea

paddle tails don't normally lay eggs on plants so are you sure the newts are paddle tails, the eggs would have been large and white not black which leads me to believe you have another species.

I actually have dug up a great picture of the eggs a day after hatching!




I have to rely on my brother to take pictures for me, and he rarely sees me, so this is the only one I have. He is coming today which is why I said I could have some more up today of the larvae.

I also have the male I purchased with the female and it is the same species...I will take pictures of him. I'm nearly positive these are paddletails, though, as the pet store had fire bellied newts in the next week (with the remaining paddletails) and there was a big difference (the only common species pet store species I know they are often confused with).

What do you think?

Ok, I've got some good pictures now. The larvae themselves are still very small, about an inch or so each.

Looks like Paramesotriton, not Pachytriton (i.e. not paddletail newts). Can you post a photo of the adults please?

Thanks John....

I think they are most likely in the Paramesotriton genus...but they look so similar to P. labitaus and the pet store had them labeled as such so I assumed the ID was correct when I looked at descriptions online. I didn't realize how common the underside coloration was... The larvae and the adult I have look exactly like like Paramesotriton hongkongensis, but I'm not doing that again...

I'll try to get pictures up, but they will be poor quality. Do you have an idea of what the species might be based on the larvae and what is commonly available in the pet trade? Also, are these guys usually WC?


Thanks again, now I'm off to look up the genus more.

You can be almost 100% sure they are WC. That would explain the sudden death of the female....They usully arrive in very bad conditions to the petstores.

They are Paramesotriton for sure, the larvae are impossible to mistake, but the species in this genus are very hard to identify.
Petstores have no idea what they are purchasing, it sickens me....This is why it is so important to correctly identify animals with scientific names. Common names, like paddletail or fireelly lead to this kind of missidentification.

Aha, this would explain why the eggs were laid on the plants! They are lovely little warties! Thank you for the photos. I completely agree with everything Rodrigo had to say.

In looking to the future, be prepared for these guys to be a little difficult to care for after they go through metamorphosis. They will most likely need to live in a terrestrial setup, and warties are notoriously shy. I wish you the best with them, Andrea.

Ok, this is big news for me. Having previously misidentified them as P. labiatus, I housed the adults in a fully aquatic setup. I have my adult male in the fridge in a few inches of water right now because he was showing signs of stress and it's pretty hot. Should adults of the Paramesotriton genus generally be housed terrestrially (or even semi-aquatic) regardless of species? I'll look into this right now, but definitive suggestions on where to go from here for the male are very appreciated.

Thanks! I'm glad I have an accurate ID now!

Adults (not metamorphosed juveniles) are ~fully aquatic in captivity - that's not a problem. The problem is that the juveniles will not want to be in or near water until they are close to adulthood.

Hi everyone,

I have some updates! I took the adult male out of the fridge and he's now in his improved ten gallon tank. He wasn't eating in the fridge, but now that he's out he is feeding well on waxworms (he's still very skinny, so I'm happy he's accepting these.)

I've also have some pictures of the nighttime larval transparency. (I'm borrowing my brother's camera so can take pictures anytime I need to .)

Adult Male: He's not in perfect condition right now, but any guess as to an ID?






Larvae (size comparison shot):



Picture above enlarged:



They have some white "lateral line spotting"...not sure if that's what to call it. I hadn't noticed it before tonight and will have to look at them tomorrow for this when they are pigmented! They are growing and changing very quickly and it's such a treat to see.

Thanks!
Andrea