Stopped eating

One of my axies has stopped eating and is starting to get thin. Conditions in the tank have not changed (the other one is still pigging out as usual), nor has her appearance, and I have fairly fine sand in the tank so I don't think she's swallowed anything. She has been digging to the bottom of the tank in one particular spot but she was doing that before she stopped eating. She still looks at the food as normal and sometimes takes a small nibble but then spits it back out. Should I give her a spell in the fridge? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Hi Rastus,

rastus said:

One of my axies has stopped eating and is starting to get thin. Conditions in the tank have not changed

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Nevertheless, could you provide tank parameters? The usual culprits - Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate, PH, Temperature.

rastus said:

(the other one is still pigging out as usual), nor has her appearance, and I have fairly fine sand in the tank so I don't think she's swallowed anything.

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Although the other axie is still pigging out, this doesnt necessarily mean there is nothing wrong with the water - it just may be that the healthier axie has a better constitution than its ill companion.

If she is sick, putting her in the fridge will not hurt and it is best to seperate her from the other axie. Are there any signs of fungus? Or is she just not eating? If the latter, putting her in the fridge will slow her metabolism and will not encourage her to eat.

How long has she not been eating?

Could you post a photo of her?

Ph and temp. are ok, but to be honest I know nothing about Ammonnia, Nitrite or Nitrate. Can I buy test kits for these? No signs of fungus. Hasn't eaten for 3 or 4 days (usually eats every day). Will try to post photo. Also I just looked at her closely and noticed that it sort of looks like she has something in her mouth but I don't think she has, if that makes sense. The bottom of her mouth is bulging a bit and I can see what looks like her jaw bone pushing under her skin. Could she have injured her mouth?

Yes, you can buy test kits for all. The URGENT ones would be AMMONIA and NITRITE - the readings should read as zero for both - anything higher is toxic to an axie! NITRATE isn't as important but is very handy to know. People often mix up NITRITE and NITRATE - NITRITE is the one you want as priority for these two test kits. AMMONIA test is the FIRST PRIORITY!

She could have injured her mouth - without a picture though it's hard to say - she may have fungus in the mouth which is what you may see inside it or have an infection or another obstruction.

I would get her out of the tank and put her in a tub of fresh dechlorinated water and pop her in the fridge - set the fridge temp to over 5 degrees. Keep a couple of dechlorinated bottles of water in the fridge for water changes - this will need to be done once a day.

Without test kits...How often do you do water changes in the tank?

Any aquarium should be able to test the water for you if you don't wish to buy the kits yourself (to buy each kit is about $20-$30...if memory serves last time I glanced at the receipts ). Either way, the priority is to test ammonia and nitrite - if you opt for the aquarium to do for you, you need to take a water sample with you - a sealable jar will do - I'm told it's cheap as chips to have them do it for you.

Good luck, and I hope I haven't bombarded you - I just don't like the sound of that mouth...the poor lil darling!

Cheers J.

OK She's going in the fridge for a little spell while i get some test kits. How long can/should I keep her there for? I change about 15-20% of the water 2-3 times a week. Still trying to get a decent photo. Don't worry about bombarding me with info, the more the better, I appreciate your response. Perhaps I'll post a note in the general forum about her mouth. Thanks heaps.

You can keep her in there as long as you like. The cold helps an axie heal and relax - they LOVE the cold - but note cold also slows the metabolism which means she may not eat - but the slowing the metabolism has the advantage of buying you some time to figure out what's going on. Also, if there is an obstruction, the cold will help pass it.

You will need to keep filling the bottles of fresh dechlorinated water to keep in the fridge for daily water changes - this keeps the cold water temperature constant for her - changes in temp can stress her. I would also cover the tub with a teatowel to ensure she is not disturbed when the fridge door is opened closed during the day.

What do you feed her? Could the food be lodged in her throat?

Thanks for that. Also, what's the procedure for putting her back in the tank? I feed her earthworms, mealworms and frozen bloodworms so I doubt wether they'd get stuck in her throat. She's been in the fridge for a couple of days, will see if she eats today. Been a bit flat out so I havn't had a chance to get test kits, just about to go get them. Will post results later today.

Re: Test results

Well i just tested the water for nitrite and it was between .05 and 1 which is too high from what I've read. Apart from water changes and feeding less often is there anything else I can do about this?
I just noticed that the test I got for ammonia actually says 'ammonium', which I hope is the same thing, and that is reading 0. Couldn't get a test for nitrate, shop had run out.
The thing that puzzles me is the funny looking mouth and the fact that the other axie is ok, both of which lead me to think it's not water quality related.

Re: Test results

rastus said:

Well i just tested the water for nitrite and it was between .05 and 1 which is too high from what I've read. Apart from water changes and feeding less often is there anything else I can do about this?

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Hi Rastus,

Yes it is too high. I would change your routine for water changes now to DAILY 20% water changes for the tank, this is the only way to bring that nitrite level down - do not under any circumstances use so called chemical fixes to do this. With your dilligence and persistance to the water changes the nitrite should go down.

Now that you have the kits, test the water daily to monitor that nitrite spike.

rastus said:

Couldn't get a test for nitrate, shop had run out.

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That's okay, it not a priority - it's just handy to know. Ammonia and Nitrite are the important ones.

rastus said:

The thing that puzzles me is the funny looking mouth and the fact that the other axie is ok, both of which lead me to think it's not water quality related.

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Without a photo of the 'funny looking mouth' it is hard for us to help you, it could be an injury, it could be fungus, an obstruction, an infection, or something other...

If it is any of these issues in the mouth, then the water quality will be a big issue and as your nitrite reading is '1.0' (this level is highly toxic) I think it safe to assume the water quality has been a contributing factor to the axies ill health - Without a photo though, all we can do is shoot in the dark.

As I mentioned previously, your other axie just may have a better constitution to resist illness.

rastus said:

I just noticed that the test I got for ammonia actually says 'ammonium', which I hope is the same thing

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Well, you've got me there I'm sorry, I'm not sure. There is bound to be a clever little bunny somewhere on this forum who will know...I would take it back to the aquarium and ask them - it's important you have the right kit.

You mentioned in your previous post that you feed your axies on mealworms - do you cut their heads off? If the heads are left on, they can cause internal damage to the axie.

A photo of your sick axie, in particular 'the mouth' will be very helpful.

Cheers Jacq.

Re: Test results

rastus said:

I just noticed that the test I got for ammonia actually says 'ammonium', which I hope is the same thing

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Hello rastus,

Ammonia and ammonium are not the same thing. Ammonium is the protonated form of ammonia and is also less toxic. This could pose a serious problem for your axolotls because you are not acutally testing for ammonia. I personally, have never heard of tests for ammonium.

Jay.

The test kit I got for 'Ammonium' says NH4. I did a quick bit of googling and I think Ammonia is NH3 so I think I have the wrong test kit?
I do cut the heads off the mealworms so I don't think that's it.
I can't post a photo, but her mouth is now just bulging underneath, like it's full, and she does seem reluctant to open it. Also I noticed that her gills have receded a bit, but I thought that was due to her not eating and losing weight in general.
I'm now concerned that she hasn't eaten for at least a week and is now in the fridge, which makes her less likely to eat from what I've read. I suppose she'll eat when she is able, regardless of temperature?
Anyway, I'm getting a bit worried so any advice would be appreciated at this stage. Thanks.

Re: Test results

Kal El said:

Hello rastus,

Ammonia and ammonium are not the same thing. Ammonium is the protonated form of ammonia and is also less toxic. This could pose a serious problem for your axolotls because you are not acutally testing for ammonia. I personally, have never heard of tests for ammonium.

Jay.

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According to my recent learnings in Chemistry at school, aren't the ratios of ammonia to ammonium in constant equilibrium. Therefore, shouldn't they be at roughly the same levels?

Re: Test results

Your healthy axolotl may be coping with the out-of-the-norm quality better than your sick axie. I'd try to correct their environment as soon as safely possible. In terms of the nitrite levels and no ammonia, perhaps your tank has already established the ammonia-converting bacteria in what we like to call 'the Nitrogen Cycle'. You may of just experienced the toxic ammonia spike that would of made your axies sick and you may very well be experiencing the slightly less toxic nitrite spike. Enough of my mumbo-jumbo now

There seems to be some confusion over Ammonia v Ammonium, so let's assume mine is high/wrong. Can I do anything about it without knowing for sure?
I have live plants in the tank. Would that affect anything?
How do I include quotes from your messages in my replies by the way?

sherylbobbins said:

According to my recent learnings in Chemistry at school, aren't the ratios of ammonia to ammonium in constant equilibrium. Therefore, shouldn't they be at roughly the same levels?

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Not necessarily. It is difficult to establish an equilibrium in a tank because there will always be shifts in pH. Having said that, pH effects the ammonia(NH3)/ammonium(NH4) ratio. In acidic conditions (i.e. pH less than 7), NH3 will become protonated (pick up an extra proton H+) and thus form the less toxic NH4.

As a general rule of thumb for the NH3/NH4 ratio: for every one unit decrease in pH measurement there is a ten-fold decrease in the percentage of NH3.

rastus said:

There seems to be some confusion over Ammonia v Ammonium, so let's assume mine is high/wrong. Can I do anything about it without knowing for sure?
I have live plants in the tank. Would that affect anything?
How do I include quotes from your messages in my replies by the way?

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If these plants are dying they will add to the amount of ammonia within your tank. Also, plants will utilise ammonium and ammonia as their primary source of energy, even if there is nitrate within your tank. The best thing that you can do for now is to continue doing partial water changes until you acquire the correct test kit and eliminate the nitrite within your tank.

With quoting, it's simple. There is a button to the bottom right of each post that says "Quote". Click this button and off you go.

Jay.

rastus said:

The test kit I got for 'Ammonium' says NH4. I did a quick bit of googling and I think Ammonia is NH3 so I think I have the wrong test kit?

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Yes, I'd say so. I wish aquariums wouldn't assume everyone to have a degree in chemistry...sigh...Hmmm, I've just checked my Ammonia test kit and it tests for both NH3/NH4 - I'm guessing it tests both at the same time...

If you just have the NH4, you will need to purchase the NH3.

rastus said:

I do cut the heads off the mealworms so I don't think that's it.

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Okay, thought I'd better check

rastus said:

I can't post a photo, but her mouth is now just bulging underneath, like it's full, and she does seem reluctant to open it.

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I think you should get her to a vet - it sounds like a mouth infection that may need a course of antibiotics. I note you are from Australia, if you are from Melbourne I can give you a list of vets that specialise in 'exotic pets' such as our axies...If from another State - post an enquiry and i'm sure someone on this forum will be able to help.

rastus said:

Also I noticed that her gills have receded a bit, but I thought that was due to her not eating and losing weight in general.

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Gills will recede in the cold, this is normal.

As a general rule of thumb for the NH3/NH4 ratio: for every one unit decrease in pH measurement there is a ten-fold decrease in the percentage of NH3.

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Touche. I will harrass my chemistry teacher over that lol

Re: Water good, still not eating.

Well I finally got the tests sorted and have got the water conditions back under control. I gave the tank a thorough clean, and discovered that under the sand where some plants that had started dying a while ago (I thought I got rid of them) I found a fair amount of a black smelly clay looking stuff that I assume was the rotting roots of the plant?!? Ammonia and Nitrite levels improved after I removed it, so I guess it was partly to blame.
The problem I have now is that the axie in the fridge is still not eating. It's been well over a week since she ate and although she hasn't changed in appearance (other than weight loss) and seems fairly normal when I change the water, I'm beginning to worry.
Is it possible to sort of gently encourage her to eat buy using a syringe to squirt food in her mouth?

Hi Rastus,

Originally Posted by rastus
I can't post a photo, but her mouth is now just bulging underneath, like it's full, and she does seem reluctant to open it.

Is her mouth still swollen?

I think we would still need a photo - this swollen mouth worries me. Is it sure that there is nothing stuck inside its mouth - a pebble, snail or anything else? I read that you have sand, but some people use stones/pebbles for decoration. Did you have a look inside its mouth? You could gently hold the Axolotl and try to open its mouth, using blunt object, for instance a spoon handle. If the swelling is still there, this might very well might be the cause for not eating and you have to bring to light what the problem is, possibly visiting a veterinarian to clear this up.