Forum Changes

Dear Caudata.org User,

After consulting with the donors, site contributors and moderators over the past month, we've decided that steps must be taken to foster a suitable level of discussion on our forum. To that end, we've decided to reorganise the topics into two main categories: Beginner/Help and Advanced. The first step is the actual reorganisation of the topics, which has now taken place.

It has been agreed that the second step will be to restrict posting in the Advanced Topics. To accomplish this we will be instituting two measures. The first will be to make the Advanced Topics moderated posting by default to registered users and donor users (i.e. all users except site contributors and moderators). What that means is that each post made by a user will undergo a check by a moderator to ensure it is at a suitable level or worthwhile for the Advanced Topics. This is to ensure that repetitive posts, rude/unsuitable posts and non-contributing posts do not make their way into the Advanced Topics. This will also ensure that newbies/beginners are encouraged to read, learn and think about their new interest and then compose worthwhile messages. Please understand that anyone can post to the Advanced Topics, but the posts will be vetted for content.

Secondly we will be going through the list of all current members (registered users and donors) to flag enthusiasts and professionals who have demonstrated a level of competence in their posts. Being flagged will mean their posts will not have to be moderated in the Advanced Topics. Users will be flagged or not flagged based on their track record on the forum: reputation level/the quality of their previous posts. Some users may also be flagged because they are known authorities in the Caudate, Amphibian or Herpetile world. Present users and new users who post quality material for moderation in the Advanced Topics section will be flagged on an ongoing basis - i.e. flagging is an interactive process.

We ask for your understanding during the next few days as we implement this new system. You should also be aware that we are not perfect and we might miss a few names on the initial period of user vetting.

I would also like to make it clear that Donor status does not confer the ability to post unmoderated threads/messages to the Advanced Topic area.

-John & the Caudata.org Team

Whilst I completley agree with the sentiment and reasons for doing so it does concern me that this is only going to foster the 'elitist'(somewhat arrogant and egotistical) mindset that some members here display with the 'flagging' system.
I assume there are going to be rather strict guidelines in place as to what constitutes an advanced topic and a beginer topic? Against what criteria will you judge someone to have 'demonstrated a level of competence in their posts'? Competance in what way? Depending on how you intend to do so thats just going to end up killing debate as people who wish to offer an alternative to a commpnly held opinion will feel uncomfortable doing so or the post wont be approved.

I don't think alternative opinions will be rejected, as long as they are sensible. If all works out correctly, this should be beneficial to all people, not only the 'elitist'. It is commonly known a lot of people think it's a waste of time to read through all the repetitive or downright stupid posts over and over again.

I'm all for this experiment and I hope it turns out well.

To Coen:
I'm not sure it's an experiment. I can't in good conscience let the forum continue in its present state. This is a lesser version of the Caudata.org I founded and saw through the first 3 years of its existence.

To Lasher:
You will not be able to tell who is flagged and who is not. The only way to know is to post while logged in as the person in question. So there is no visible flagging, hence no visible elitism. As the above post states, anyone can post to the Advanced Topics. So your point is rendered irrelevant in this case.

As for your second query, the topics were set at least 90 minutes before you posted. I said so in my post above - I'll give you the benefit of the doubt here and assume that's the only part of my post that you over-looked.

Your third query: initially I personally will be going down the member list and clicking the button as to who can post unmoderated or not. The criteria will be based primarily on reputation and posting history, and secondarily on my (or moderator/admin collective knowledge) personal knowledge of the person. I don't have a magic exactometer device I can point at someone to "measure their suitability". However I've been running this show for over 7 years and the discussion in the donor area has given me a firm mandate to implement this system. And as I clearly point out in the first post, if someone posts worthwhile messages after the new system is implemented, they will surely be given unmoderated status?

And to your last point: I fail to see how someone who feels strongly about something and has something worthwhile to say (in their own opinion, nevermind anyone else's) could be discouraged by having to wait for their post to be reviewed by the people who run (and have run for years) their chosen place of discussion? Especially when it might be the only post they have to make before being given unmoderated status.

I hope you're not under the impression that those people (including myself, the moderators, site contributors and donors) who have discussed this for over a month have somehow decided to turn this into some conspiratorial regime that will make unfair and evil decisions about who can and can't post here? After reading what you've posted above a few times, I'm feeling that vibe from you. Now pause for thought for a moment - do you think you would have the reputation level you have right now if the Evil Empire really did run this place?

PS: Happy Birthday Coen.

Hi,

I'm unclear on the point of what happens to rejected messages.

- If someone posts a question in the Advanced section and it is deemed amateurish, will it be moved to the Beginners section?

- If a message is disapproved for any reason, will its author be notified of the reason for its rejection?

Thank you,

-Eva

Eva: If a new thread is posted by a member without privileges in the advanced forum and it is deemed a beginner topic it will be moved to the beginner area and opened. Comments on advanced topic threads will probably be just deleted. John will need to verify that.

As to notification, it would probably be a good thing to have. It all depends upon how many people post, the percentage of rejected posts or if John can automate the system.

Lasher: I don't think you have much to worry about. Caudata.org isn't really a place for nepotism and everything I've seen points to democracy and meritocracy. I certainly didn't know anyone before I became a moderator but I was given the position anyway. I think many others could say the same thing.

The "flags" will also be invisible so who is to say if member x is advanced or not? An advanced user could decide to never use his power and just help out people in the beginner section. In the opposite situation that contributing member in the advanced section will quickly find himself flagged.

There is always going to be a certain group of people that will think that this website is elitist and egotistical because of our striving to promote quality, thoughtful discussion. It's really a question of perspective and how you feel the proper management of online forums should be conducted. I think it should be sufficient to say as long as a person constructs their points rationally and civilly they will be accepted.

I would have to agree that I really doubt the system will be abused by moderators. This has been one of the friendliest forums I have been on, with a distinct lack of trolling in particular (seems to be one of the main issues at other forums) so think the new changes will really be in the best interests of the members here and will provide something for both experts and beginners.

Anyway, I think the changes are great, new forum looks good and I am even being swayed on the social networking side of it

My 2c.

Kudos to John for taking steps to improve the quality of this forum. Unfortunately, I believe it is a reality with any discussion board that the overall quality of the posts begin to stagnate after a while. I'm active on several discussion boards on a variety of topics, and I get frustrated when they get bombarded with lazy internet jargon, inflammatory comments, and a general malaise concerning the integrity and reputation of the hobby in question. (I hope that made sense?)

I think the amphibian hobby has progressed to a level where we should demand a higher quality of posting/discussion pertaining to the finer points of captive management/husbandry, conservation, etc rather than just being a repository for 'quick and dirty' answers to the very basics of keeping salamanders as pets. Frankly, I don't consider any of the species that I am working with as 'pets' because I am more interested in making hobby level advances in husbandry for long-term captive management of various amphibian species.

There are real opportunities here to empower hobbyists to do something immensely positive with the animals under their care, rather than simply for their own edification.

Jason

Jason I think that you are exactly right, and that this is also the motivation behind the more clarified division of topics. People looking for answers till now have had go through anecdotal, parenthetical posts to sieve out information relevant to their search (or original question). Know what I mean? I have also noticed (and been terribly guilty of) threads going from the "question:answer" phase to chat form. For example, I love the fact that axolotls are included under the Beginners section, as these days most of their "owners" here on the Forum are new pet owners with basic questions and not species hobbyists - do you have axolotls? (I could tell you about this thing I read once, it was so funny but at the end I learned something really good.) (Don't remember what it was anymore.) (But I had to laugh at what the people wrote.) (Know what I mean?)

In my initial www search for information I decided upon this forum as best source and have not changed my mind yet. The fact that the founder is categorizing and priotitizing the forum information and its source and its quality only justifies that initial impression.

-Eva

blueberlin said:

In my initial www search for information I decided upon this forum as best source and have not changed my mind yet. The fact that the founder is categorizing and priotitizing the forum information and its source and its quality only justifies that initial impression.

Click to expand...

If I weren't married...

John said:

If I weren't married...

Click to expand...

Anything I can answer to that would surely be rejected as irrelevant to the purpose of increasing knowledge of Caudatas. (You'd kiss a newt.) (Sorry, slipped out.)

If nothing else I am a perfect example of what not to write...

Advanced Topics have now been changed. Posting there is by moderation unless your account has been invisibly flagged (you won't know unless you personally try and post). Access is granted semi-automatically: you must be a member for a certain amount of time, have a certain number of posts and a certain reputation level.

Additionally, administrators (Jennewt and myself) can add people manually.

Just an FYI - there seems to be an issue where a few people who should be able to post in the Advanced Topics are getting moderated. I'm working on a fix for this but I have limited time today so it might be tonight before I get a chance to look at it.

I think I've fixed this issue for everyone but I need someone to test it for me (not flyangler, rigsby, juraj, saspotato or paul because I manually set your permissions to bypass the problem - just can't do that for everyone).