California Laws?

I know they don't allow the import of axolotls to California but what is the situation with those bred from individuals already there?

On the other side of things, what are the legal issues surrounding collection of California species from the wild now? Forgive my ignorance, but I'm rather curious.

And what about photographing salamanders and newts in the wild - can they be picked up and manipulated for photos legally?

Thanks!

John said:

On the other side of things, what are the legal issues surrounding collection of California species from the wild now? Forgive my ignorance, but I'm rather curious.

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Found this:
http://www.californiaherps.com/info/herpinglaws.html

(Which also includes this regarding captive propagation of native reptiles and amphibians:
http://www.dfg.ca.gov/licensing/specialpermits/specialpermits.html )

-Eva

Ok, here we go.

As far as I know, all Ambystoma are illegal to import, export, collect, posess, and sell under state and federal law due to the status of the California tiger salamander. I have no source for this other than what I have been told by agents of the Fish and Game office in Sacramento, CA.

Handling and collection of certain reptiles and amphibians is ok as long as the handler/collector is in posession of a valid California sportfishing license.

For a list of species that can and can not be taken please see: http://www.californiaherps.com/info/herpinglaws.html

I hope this helps.

I'll have to try and find the new species restrictions listed for 2008. There's a section that was a little unclear at first, I thought it was just Tiger Salamanders being banned for import and trade into CA. It's something like... Salamanders: Genus Ambystoma (Tiger Salamanders)
From the guys I've spoken to, this includes all salamanders in the genus Ambystoma. I don't remember reading or hearing anything regarding not being able to posess salamanders of the genus Ambystoma.

David Tobler said:

I'll have to try and find the new species restrictions listed for 2008. There's a section that was a little unclear at first, I thought it was just Tiger Salamanders being banned for import and trade into CA. It's something like... Salamanders: Genus Ambystoma (Tiger Salamanders)
From the guys I've spoken to, this includes all salamanders in the genus Ambystoma. I don't remember reading or hearing anything regarding not being able to posess salamanders of the genus Ambystoma.

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Thanks guys. I must admit that it seems like they have their heads firmly implanted in their rear ends. Why must authorities place indiscriminate bans on entire families.

California Fish & Game did the law the way they did so that there would be no confusion as to what ambystomid larvae they were looking at. "Water dog" were a bait favorite for bass fisherman so to protect the native tiger salamander the ban was started. It originally was only going to affect northern California and only cover the tiger salamander complex but fears were raised that fishermen would still "smuggle" the larvae into the closed areas. It was also determined that it would be to "difficult" to properly identify the larvae. This is very typical of this state when it comes to dealing with amphibians and reptiles. Fish & Game tried to ban the keeping of all herpitiles because it didn't want to worry about its agents knowing the difference between native and non-native species.
Mark

caud8 said:

Fish & Game tried to ban the keeping of all herpitiles because it didn't want to worry about its agents knowing the difference between native and non-native species.

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That's pretty damning but it sounds about right. Heaven forbid a state should properly train its employees - that might cost money, and we wouldn't want to add to that record-breaking deficit they have in Caleefawneeah (would we, Arnold).

It stemmed from a case they lost in the mid to late 80's. Some breeders in northern California were "busted" for having more animals than the bag limit for California Kingsnakes. The problem was that what was confinscated were subspecies that did not occur in the state. Fish & Game tried to argue that the law applied to the species Lampropeltis getula no matter what. It all boiled down to the judge asking if the subspecies in question were native to the state to which the answer was no. The judge then asked why they were in court and threw the whole case out. Mark

John said:

Thanks guys. I must admit that it seems like they have their heads firmly implanted in their rear ends. Why must authorities place indiscriminate bans on entire families.

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Unfortunately, this is the way things are moving everywhere. From what I can see going on, regulations on herps and exotic pets will continue to become more restrictive, and the general sentiment among regulators is that blanket bans are a great solution. They are easier to legislate and easier to enforce. To tell you the truth, I'm beginning to wonder if there is any future in this hobby or not. It's only a matter of time until much of what we now do to perpetuate amphibians in captivity will be illegal. I'll post on another thread about some federal legislation that is headed our way...

OK, here's my two cents. Don't listen to ANY advice or opinions, just read the fising reg (herps are covered in it). There is already misinformation in this thread. It's very clear and straight forward. And the 08 regs are good into 09 until the next one is published. I herp CA every year with no issues, because I follow the reg.

If there are problems in a thread, one should fix them. This will make sure that those wishing to educate themselves get the most correct information.

The following is directly from the 2008-2009 California freshwater sportfishing regulations guide.
http://www.dfg.ca.gov/regulations/08-09-inland-fish-regs.pdf

"5.05. Amphibians.
(a) Only the following amphibians may be taken
under the authority of a sportfishing license,
subject to the restrictions in this section. No
amphibians may be taken from ecological
reserves designated by the commission in
Section 630 or from state parks, or national
parks or monuments.
(1) Pacific giant salamander (Dicamptodon
tenebrosus)
(2) California giant salamander (Dicamptodon
ensatus)
(3) Southern Seep (Torrent) Salamander
(Rhyacotriton variegatus) (4) Rough-skinned newt (Taricha
granulosa)
(5) California newt (Taricha torosa)
(6) Red-bellied newt (Taricha rivularis)
(7) Northwestern salamander (Ambystoma
gracile)
(8) Long-toed salamander (Ambystoma
macrodactylum), except Santa Cruz long-toed
salamander (Ambystoma macrodactylum
croceum)
( 9) Black salamander (Aneides
flavipunctatus)
( 10) Clouded salamander (Aneides
ferreus) ( 11) Arboreal salamander (Aneides
lugubris)
( 12) California slender salamander
(Batrachoseps attenuatus): See Special
Closure (f)( 1)
( 13 ) Pacific slender salamander
(Batrachoseps pacificus): See Special
Closure (f)( ( 14) Relictual slender salamander
(Batrachoseps relictus): See Special Closure
(f)( 1)
( 15) Dunn’s salamander (Plethodon dunni)
( 16) Ensatina salamander (Ensatina
eschscholtzii)
( 17) Western toad (Bufo boreas)
( 18) Woodhouse’s toad (Bufo woodhouseii)
( 19) Red-spotted toad (Bufo punctatus)
(20) Great Plains toad (Bufo cognatus)
(21) Great Basin spadefoot toad (Scaphiopus
(Spea) intermontana)
(22) Couch’s spadefoot toad (Scaphiopus
(Spea) couchii)
(23) California chorus frog (Hyla (Pseudacris)
cadaverina)
(24) Pacific chorus frog (Hyla (Pseudacris)
regilla)
(25) Northern leopard frog (Rana pipiens)
(26) Southern leopard frog (Rana
yutricularia)
(27) Rio Grande leopard frog (Rana
berlandieri)
(28) Bullfrog (Rana catesbeiana)
(b) Open season: All year. The season closures
in Chapter 3 (District Trout and Salmon District
General Regulations and Special Regulations)
do not apply to fishing for amphibians with
methods other than hook and line (see sections
7.00 and 7.50(a)(2)).
(c) Limit: The daily bag and possession limit
for each of the amphibian species listed
in subsection (a), above, is four except for
bullfrogs, which have no daily bag or possession
limit.
(d) Hours: Amphibians may be taken at any
time of day or night.
(e) Methods of take:
( 1) Amphibians may be taken only by hand,
hand-held dip net, or hook and line, except
bullfrogs may also be taken by lights, spears,
gigs, grabs, paddles, bow and arrow, or
fishing tackle.
(2) It is unlawful to use any method or means
of collecting that involves breaking apart of
rocks, granite flakes, logs, or other shelters in
or under which amphibians may be found.
(f) Special closures:
( 1) No slender salamanders (Batrachoseps
spp.) may be taken from Inyo and Mono
counties and from the Santa Rosa Mountains,
Riverside County."

The following is can be seen here: http://www.dfg.ca.gov/licensing/pdffiles/fg1518.pdf

"California Code of Regulations, Title 14, Excerpts
§671. Importation, Transportation and Possession of
Live Restricted Animals.
(a) It shall be unlawful to import, transport, or possess
alive animals restricted in subsection (c) below except under
permit issued by the Department of Fish and Game. Permits
may be issued by the department as specified herein and for
purposes designated in Section 671.1 subject to the conditions
and restrictions designated by the department. Except
for mammals listed in Fish and Game Code Section 3950 or
live aquatic animals requiring a permit pursuant to Fish and
Game Code Section 2271, no permit is required by this section
for any animal being imported, transported, or possessed
pursuant to any other permit issued by the department. Cities
and counties may also possession or require a permit for these
and any other species not requiring a state permit.
(b) The commission has determined the below listed animals
are not normally domesticated in this state. Mammals
listed to prevent the depletion of wild populations and to provide
for animal welfare are termed “welfare animals”, and are
designated by the letter “W”. Those species listed because
they pose a threat to native wildlife, the agriculture interests of
the state or to public health or safety are termed “detrimental
animals” and are designated by the letter “D”. The department
shall include the list of welfare and detrimental wild animals
as part of DFG MANUAL NO. 671 IMPORTATION, TRANSPORTATION
AND POSSESSION OF RESTRICTED SPECIES,
to be made available to all permittees and other interested
individuals.
(c) Restricted species include:
...
(3) Class Amphibia-Frogs, Toads, Salamanders
(A) Family Bufonidae-Toads Bufo marinus, Bufo paracnemis,
Bufo horribilis (Giant toad or marine toad
group) and all other large toads from Mexico and Central
and South America (D).
(B) Family Pipidae-Tongueless Toads
All species of the Genus Xenopus (D).
(C) Family Ambystomatidae-Mole Salamanders
All species of the genus Ambystoma (tiger
salamanders)"

However, there is a bill that is currently trying to get passed in the CA senate that would do away with these restrictions. More information about thispiece of legislation can be found here:http://www.pijac.org/files/public/CA_SB_1424.pdf

I have yet to see any official information about manipulation in the wild for photography.

Hopefully, that will give more clarity to this issue.

That was my point of recommending reading the regs from the source, not repeated or abbreviated, or worse, second hand from a fish cop.

Looks like about the same rules again. CA is smarter than you think. By listing what you CAN take, any new species described is automatically protected by default by never being added to the take list. Slick.

So is anyone aware of any other species regulated besides Ambystoma(which I can still find no online evidence of besides anecdotal), and Bufo marinus/related large species?