WC vs. CB Discussion

My recent posts regarding catching wild caught specimins have been childish as of late, but this is the second thread I've come across where people in the states seem to be catching WC specimins with no knowledge of their captive care?

I know for caudate keepers in the US it must be amazingly tempting to have all these newts and salamanders in there back gardens or local parks but at the end of the day there in a habitat that simply can not be bested (unless theres a mall about to be built there)

Simply put, my advice is to release the specimin back into the area that you found it, as a superficial guess I doubt you have the knowledge or experiance to be able to breed it in a way that it becomes an asset towards CB populations, so it would be much better off back in the habitat it came from.

If the species in question is endangerd, with the right knowledge, experiance and means of caring for the animals, harvesting larvae in large numbers to raise and release back into the wild whilst keeping say two or three individuals (representing those that would have fallen prey in a wild situation) would be a much healthier and educational option. That way the wild population gets a helping hand and you get to start off your own captive colony.

Re: new D. ensatus owner with questions

marco said:

If the species in question is endangerd, with the right knowledge, experiance and means of caring for the animals, harvesting larvae in large numbers to raise and release back into the wild whilst keeping say two or three individuals (representing those that would have fallen prey in a wild situation) would be a much healthier and educational option. That way the wild population gets a helping hand and you get to start off your own captive colony.

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Although it sounds like a good idea, the issues with that are addressed in this thread- http://www.caudata.org/forum/showthread.php?t=57142&highlight=tadpoles+food

Re: new D. ensatus owner with questions

Alright scratch that last bit, collecting from the wild is generally a negative occurance.

Re: new D. ensatus owner with questions

marco said:

collecting from the wild is generally a negative occurance.

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Agreed!
http://caudata.org/forum/showthread.php?t=58205

Re: new D. ensatus owner with questions

I couldn't disagree more. Collecting legal specimens from the wild for personal use is fine and is how MANY of us started, but MANY forget. Unfortunately most of these threads get bogged down by the self righteous who probably have spent very little time in the field and are the equivalent of most saltwater fish keepers.

Alex, your best bet on determining requirements for Dicomps is to ponder the habitat that you found them in and try to mimic that as best you can. A 10gl or 20gl tank is plenty big for one larvae, with good filtration and aeration (I used a TopFlow for mine). I have raised them fine on chunks of dehydrated tubiflex worms until metamorphis. That's when it gets tricky. They'll start coming out of the water as their gills are absorbed, but even after they are completely gone don't remove them from a set-up that doesn't have water to submerge in for another few months, they will continue to feed as though they are aquatic, and seemingly only that way.

Josh, no kidding, they are in every coastal stream from Santa Cruz to Canada.

Re: new D. ensatus owner with questions

Russ, you are entitled to your opinion of course, but please don´t take it on people like me who are concerned.
I know the situation in the US is quite different than in Europe, since most species are legal to collect, and most of them are also pretty common. However, i strongly feel, collecting from the wild, usually responds to a selfish desire......i want this species and it´s not available in pet-shops so i simply go out and pick some for myself...
That kind of "the world is here for my own abuse" is something i cannot understand...

Anyway, you deal with your own laws and points of view.....here in europe it´s a much bigger issue...

And yes....another thread bogged down by self righteous kids....

Re: new D. ensatus owner with questions

azhael said:

Russ, you are entitled to your opinion of course, but please don´t take it on people like me who are concerned.

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Ok I usually try to stay out of these arguments but Azheal aren't you doing the samething? Like you said the situation in America is quite different than Europe so please keep that in mind when people want to collect something. Can you also explain why when I and other very prominent members of the forum want to collect something thats not offered in pet stores we are considered selfish? Now I am not saying everyone go out and start collecting but I also shouldn't have to feel like I have to hide the fact that I collected an animal from the wild.

Re: new D. ensatus owner with questions

Let me rephrase it then....it SOMETIMES responds to a selfish desire. I´ve stated before in other posts, that i´m not against legal and cautious collection. If done by knowledgeable people, it is a very important part of the hobby. However the majority of animals that are caught, outside the pet-trade, are caught by kids, or people who just fancy taking home that cool little thing they found.
Maybe it´s my european mind that speaks but i just have a hard time trying to understand US laws....however, if laws are that way, there must be a reason. Here it is ilegal, no exception, and it´s even illegal to touch and disturb some species....

I´m sorry if you see my comments as a direct attact to you or anyone else...it´s not i assure you. I do have a problem with the collection of wild animals in general, but it doesn´t mean there aren´t some aspects of it which i respect. However i still think it´s somewhat selfish to consider wild animals as something that´s there for us to take whenever we want......as it´s selfish to keep animals in captivity....please don´t feel insulted by the word "selfish", because everyone in this and other hobbies is...

I respect and admire the success that Russ has achieved with several species, but since his comment was at the very least partially aimed to me i felt like answering.
You should not feel bad for collecting animals, of course not, as long as it is legal in your state, and you are doing it with care, and knowing what you are doing, which i´m sure you do(sadly MANY other people don´t), and if my opinions make you feel that way, i will try to refrain myself from expressing myself about this issue everytime it´s discussed...

Re: new D. ensatus owner with questions

Thank you for the clarification. Given the strictness of the Eurpoean laws I can understand why you and others over there feel the way you do. I hope I didn't come across rude or insulting in my previous post, I just couldn't quite understand your comments and I was just looking for some other statements to help me better understand you. Please don't think I took any offense to your comments.

Have a nice day,
Justin

Re: new D. ensatus owner with questions

The differences in the way of thinking between the US and Europe are quite strong in some aspects. Obviously the different laws, and the different state of caudate populations over here have an impact on us.
I understand this is unavoidably going to lead to some discussions, as it´s the case here, but i also think it´s very healthy to discuss!!! and definitely necessary for a forum like this.
I have very strong opinions, and i´m not always able to express myself without sounding too critical.
As i said i´ll try to keep my opinions on this issue to where they are apropriate, it´s obvious everyone is entitled to their opinions in this forum, and i can see that certain opinions are sometimes clouded by people like me.

I just feel i need to advice people about this issue sometimes, because i can see that some people who like the hobby and want to start in it, simply go for the eassy way(because they don´t know better perhaps), and collect their own animals(which is fine in the US, but it´s defenitely NOT fine in Europe), but wouldn´t it be better if those people started with CB animals of an eassy species??? It would benefit them , and it benefits the wild populations. And that´s why i tend to insist about this every time i can... I spend quite some time telling spanish newbies that collecting animals is ilegal, and inmoral, and it´s eassy for me to forget that´s not the case in the states.
Anyway, i will refrain from repeating my opinions to death...(even though i´m doing it right now...sorry)

Re: new D. ensatus owner with questions

Oh I forgot to mention that some of us are restricted, or at least I am, on what they can legally buy. Here in Virginia it is illegal to buy species that are native to VA. So in that regards the only way to get some species is doing the leg work yourself and collect them.

Is every caudate over there protected to where you can't even touch them, i.e to pose for pics or are there a few exceptions?

Re: new D. ensatus owner with questions

I´m not enterily sure...
I think it pretty much depends on where you are, because law varies between countries, and even between counties. Also if you are in a natural reserve, here in Spain, you are not allowed to disturb them, nor any other animal for that matter, unless you have permits.
Every single european species is protected to some degree, collection is rarely allowed, and i´d say it mostly involves non-native species.
For example, in the UK you can capture L. helveticus, but you cannot even disturb T.cristatus.
Anyway, laws are not always cristal clear, and the organisms that regulate those laws consistently fail to inform apropiately about them.

This discussion was moved from the Dicamptodon section

I agree with Azhael on this issue, in that I think that it is very important to tell hobbyists about the issues surrounding wild collection, particularly for newcomers to the hobby, in order to avoid people taking an animal from the wild that they happened upon, without knowledge about the impact on wild populations and without knowledge about captive husbandry (quite often people post to say that they have already caught an animal and want to know how to look after it, rather than ther other way round).
Where laws and population status allows, I believe that small collections from the wild by experienced hobbyists who are already knowledgeable about the species they are interested in, and have a chance to cntribute to conservation efforts by learning how to breed it (although release of cb animals is an entirely different matter that has been discussed elsewhere).

Russ is right - many of us have bought or collectd WC animals, but the point here is to stop other people making the same mistake in the future. I should never have bought WC Paramesotriton and Pachytriton when I started in the hobby, but I didn't know better, and had someone enlightened me to the way theses animals come into the pet trade I would have thought again and tried to find CB animals.

Chris

froggy said:

Russ is right - many of us have bought or collectd WC animals, but the point here is to stop other people making the same mistake in the future.

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I'm not playing devil's advocate but I think that some wild collection by a hobbyist who does not intend to sell or "harvest" a healthy population of a non-threatened species should be permissible. I have done this once (my lesser siren) and I did so legally. I would liken such an instance to someone who fishes and takes the fish home (presumably to eat). Indeed, my siren was covered by a local fishing license.

However regarding commercial collection, I do not think that there is any long-term sustainable harvest of caudates supplying the pet trade right now.

Can't help but agree with Russ here...

I, for one, do NOT want to see our laws (or habitats) go the way of Europe. I'd much rather see all legal commerce in salamanders ended, then see my ability to responsibly collect a small number of animals for my own enjoyment ended.

nate said:

I'd much rather see all legal commerce in salamanders ended, then see my ability to responsibly collect a small number of animals for my own enjoyment ended.

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You mean than, right, not then.

I think that the two 'sides' here are in more agreement than it initially seems - we all want to end unsustainable harvest of amphibians, particularly from vulnerable populations, and to educate people interested in keeping amphibians as to the issues surrounding collection and WC animals. Individuals should not be prevented from amphibian hunting, either just for the thrill of finding animals in their natural habitat, or from taking small numbers of common species (where within the law) to keep at home PROVIDED THAT THEY HAVE THE RELEVANT KNOWLEDGE.

I think that education is really the key to the whole problem of collecting for personal use and would solve the majority of problems in this area. Commercial harvesting is another matter entirely.

Chris

UK Laws on collecting - Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981 (only showing parts involving amphibians) taken from the following site http://www.naturenet.net/law/herps.html

Full protection
This applies to the great crested newt, All parts of Section 9 apply. This prohibits the intentional killing. injuring or taking (capture. etc); possession; intentional disturbance whilst occupying a 'place used for shelter or protection' and destruction of these places; sale, barter. exchange. transporting for sale and advertising to sell or to buy.

Protection against sale, etc, only
The four widespread species of amphibian, the smooth and palmate newts, the common frog and common toad, are protected only by Section 9(5) of the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981. This section prohibits sale, barter, exchange, transporting for sale and advertising to sell or to buy. Collection and keeping of these widespread amphibian species is not an offence.

Extent of protection
The Wildlife and Countryside Act only applies to 'wild animals'; these are defined as those that are living wild or were living wild before being captured or killed. It does not apply to captive bred animals being held in captivity. However, animals in gardens (e.g. newts in garden ponds) and captive bred animals that have been released to the wild are likely to be included in this definition.


The Wildlife and Countryside Act also prohibits the release of non-native species into the wild (Section 14). This is to prevent the release of exotic species that could threaten our native wildlife. Some populations of non-native species, alpine newt Triturus alpestris have become established in the wild in Britain. The legislation does not prohibit capturing and keeping these animals but it makes re-releasing them an offence.

Hope the above helps members to understand what some of the legal requirements are like in Europe, as previously stated the above is UK legislation.

I think my original point has been mistaken, the reason I posted in the first place was because the person with the WC specimin was asking for advice on how to keep the animal.

In regards to this thread, so long as the animals are being collected in responsible ways by individuals with the knowledge and the means to be able to breed them in captivity I have no problem.

And back onto my original point, the reason why I was distessed by the post is that I have the feeling of a tell tale trend within the states, on this forum I also posted in a topic regarding the collection of a bufo toad where the owner did not know how to care for it and was asking for advice. My problem is that people should not remove animals from there habitats if they dont know how to look after them, its common sense.

As some one posted earlier on, people may initially collect animals from the wild through innocent ignorance, and that can lead onto the journey of becoming a professional within the field, but when theres no regulation on how they are collected that can be a problem.

I myself am regularily offered a range of tempting Salamandra species WC for dirt cheap prices, and its not a notion of 'high and mighty' that stops me, but the fact that if they die in my hands, I know there going to be a loss to the wild populations that can never be recovered.