Bloated - help please

Hi all,

I look after two axolotls in a 4 foot tank containing 90Ls on fine aquarium sand (no gravel!). The water is cycling well, 20% changed weekly, etc. & weekly water analysis fine. One (golden albino - Sparkle) is fine & ravenous & grown from 2 to 6.5 inches in 5 months & still growing fast. The other (Lotte) is a black wild-type, has grown 2 inches in 5 months & is over 8 inches long now. They have both been eating mainly earthworms, & a few slugs (all from my chemical free garden), but over the Christmas period I fed some slivers of pig heart meat, & they both ate plenty. However, since the Christmas period, Lotte has eaten progressively less, & has spat out anything offered in the last week, & today showed no interest. I have not seen as much excrement as I would have expected lately (which I clean out with a turkey baster).

I wonder if she (I think both are female) is constipated?
Is she simply overfed & 'resting', as a snake would fast after plenty of food?
Could she be full of eggs, with no male stimulus to lay? - (a gap in my knowledge of breeding here!)

I haven't been particularly worried 'til now, as she seems pretty well looking, apart from an occasional bit of gill-fuzz, which is now cleared. However, today she seems fatter than ever & I am now worried. There is no other change of habit as far as I have noticed.

I have spoken to my vet, but she (not unsurprisingly) has nil experience.

Should I be worried? Any advice welcomed please, asap.

If anyone has urgent advice, please feel free to e-mail me: hevans@hmsg.co.uk, although I will check back here tomorrow

Many thanks,

Heather

I was surprised how much my axolotls appetites declined when they reached about 20cm/8in and growth in length slowed dramatically. Mine are also probably female and one is very rounded and plump.

Is the tank in a cool unheated room? Cool is best but appetite drops as single figures Celsius are approached,and the last week or so is colder and whiter than most! My unheated cellar is at 10C and the tank at 12C. I'm only feeding a smallish earthworm each every three or four days and the axolotls are plump and not loosing weight.

For now I don't think you need to worry too much if the axolotl is not floating or looks otherwise abnormal.

Hi Heather,

I agree with Oceanblue on this one. As your axies mature, they would feed less. Furthermore, temperature really plays a big part. Anything less than 10 degree celsius, axolotls tend to become inappetant or would regurgitate boluses of mucus covered ingesta.

Have you measured the water temperature yet?

Cheers

It sounds like you're aware of all the possible causes... it's really not easy to distinguish. This page may give you some guidance:
http://www.caudata.org/cc/articles/bloatEDK.shtml

To help your vet, the standard treatment for amphibian bloat is a salt solution; isotonic salt will prevent further bloating, but won't cure the underlying problem. If the fluid contains bacteria, then antibiotics would be warranted. This page has recipes for standard amphibian salt solutions:
http://www.caudata.org/cc/articles/salt.shtml

Darkmaverick said:

Hi Heather,

Have you measured the water temperature yet?

Cheers

Click to expand...

Sorry - yes - constantly monitored - they are in a school lab / classroom, & temperature is around 18-20degC max - now we have a bigger tank, the overnight slight drop keeps it below daytime room temp, which is good. I had more of a problem ref upper limit last summer! Anyway - definately not cold. Over Christmas, with them at home, we did get down to 10degC.

She looks absolutely fine in herself, & her body width is about the same as her head. I had wondered if she had reached her mature size, & simply now on 'maintenance' requirement, rather than growth. The change in appetite is quite abrupt. Maybe I am simply trying to overfeed her - killing with kindness & all that........

Heather

Hi Heather,

If you do not notice any other signs of illness, i believe you have already answered your question well. :happy:

It could be because she is now matured and no longer need to be fed that much.

You might like to post a picture of her here just in case.

Cheers

Jennewt said:

It sounds like you're aware of all the possible causes... it's really not easy to distinguish. This page may give you some guidance:
http://www.caudata.org/cc/articles/bloatEDK.shtml

To help your vet, the standard treatment for amphibian bloat is a salt solution; isotonic salt will prevent further bloating, but won't cure the underlying problem. If the fluid contains bacteria, then antibiotics would be warranted. This page has recipes for standard amphibian salt solutions:
http://www.caudata.org/cc/articles/salt.shtml

Click to expand...

Thank you for these - Lotte looks nothing like the bloated pictures, so that's a huge relief (fingers crossed). I hope I am being hyper about this.

The salt solution link ref fungus on eggs (etc) is especially interesting - we are currently watching up to 15 eggs, 4 are now healthy looking hatchlings, one with no obvious gills died overnight, & several other eggs I fear wont make it - looking a bit cloudy - several others look still ok. I removed all obviously dead eggs as soon as I could last week, but several were attached to viable ones, & had to remain.

Both articles saved for future reference, many thanks,

Heather

...and the second! Sorry about the reflective shine.

Darkmaverick said:

Hi Heather,

You might like to post a picture of her here just in case.

Cheers

Click to expand...

I'm not good at this - posted once (or so I thought) & it's disappeared!

Here is the FIRST pic again:

Hi Heather,

Lovely tank. The tank itself already eliminated things like impaction.

Lotte sure is a tubby little axie. Lotte also seems a little stressed, with the forward facing gills. Has it always been like this or is it just that particular camera shot angle?

From the dorsal view, what strikes me is the really prominent rounded belly. From the lateral view, other than the gills, im glad i didn't see any submandibular oedema, oedematous limbs or base of tail. It is less likely to be bloat.

If it really is a case of 'tubbyitis" (fat) i would really taper down the feeding frequency and amount. The toe tips are white and suggest maturity so the axie really doesn't need to be fed on a daily basis anymore.

I know this might be an odd question but is Lotte a he or a she? She could be having that rounded belly look simply because she has grown up and is filled with ova.

If you still see axie poop regardless of amount, Lotte isn't constipated.

Hope this helps!. (hush don't tell Lotte i said she is fat)

Cheers

Gills go back & forth, as they do, & a snapshot is deceptive I think. I do agree I have caught her in typical 'stressed gills' mode. She(? I think) lives with 'Sparkle' (see my photo gallery), so poop is difficult to attribute! They are in a generally quiet spot, water flow out of the filter is through over 5 feet of punctured tubing. Water good, etc, so if stressed maybe trapped wind?
My main concern was whether too much heart meat had stuffed her up........she hasn't had any for several weeks now, so if it was 'going off' in her I guess she wouldn't still be with us now..?

Can you explain what happens if ova are produced but without a male present - do they get expelled, reabsorbed, or stored in ever-increasing quantities? We think 'she' is female. I will try to get a suitable shot of cloaca at some point.........

Thanks for continued input,

Heather

Hi Heather,

You know what happens when someone has too much of 'fast food'. I think you may like to cut down on the heart treats.

If the stressed mode gills were just a once off incidence or due to camera angle, i would not be too concerned. Stress can be attributed to many things and if you were meticulous with your water parameters and general husbandry, it would already cut down more than 50% of the stressors. Excess wind itself would not necessarily cause too much stress as they would be expelled. Conditions like constipation and impaction on the other hand would definitely be stressful. Therefore, it would be good to observe if your axie poops.

Well gravid females as it suggests are filled with ova. Ova would develop into different stages and basically become larger. Breeding males can secrete pheromones from the cloaca (Bartlett, 1997) that stimulate this ova development process, especially when coupled with triggers like a drop in temperature. Even with a separating divider, breeding stimulus can still occur if the animals share the same tank and can still contact each other by scent, sight, vibration etc.

There are a few scenarios that can then branch off from this junction. If allowed to breed naturally, males will deposit spermatophores which the female axie can pick up. Eggs will be laid on substrates, water plants etc. Although literature documents that in some species of salamanders, retained eggs can cause illness and death, it has not been observed in axies. They tend to be good egg layers once the eggs develop. Unstimulated, the ova woould not go on to develp further and is basically like a huge reserve that give the characteristic pot belly appearance of females.

Cheers

Hi heather,

It has the look of being overweight to me, Though it is well worth checking out all the good advise and information already given. In the meantime I would drop the feeding to once every 3 or 4 days and perhaps reduce the size of the feed.

Good Luck