Question: Some things I still dont understand...

Hi everyone. Permit me to ask a few (maybe stupid) questions. I can't find the answers anywhere so perhaps you can help me out.

First off, a little background. I thought my tank was finally cycled after 2 months and I was very happy. I add 3 drops of (28% aqueous) ACS grade ammonium hydroxide every day and test to see if nitrite and ammonia are zero 24 hours later. After my tank has proven it can handle this amount of ammonia in a day, I did a 75% water change and tried adding one of my axolotls.

Well he hated the tank. I've never seen his gills curl forward more. The temperature is maintained by a chiller at 65 deg. F, and most of the time the lights are off (I have one fluorescent light 28W). I don't know why he doesn't like it in the tank, so after 2 days I took him out and he was happy as a clam in his old plastic container. What's going on

Questions:

1) I removed a few white film things floating around the tank before adding the axolotl. Do you think this stuff is the beneficial bacteria so that's why the axolotl isn't happy?

2) Let's say you add axolotls to a cycled tank that is used to getting 1ppm ammonia daily. And your axolotl doesn't produce any waste for 1 or 2 days. Do the bacteria die in this time? Do they grow back quickly if they die and then come to some sort of equilibrium? I thought I was supposed to remove their waste but doesn't that mean the bacteria wont have any "food"?

3) When my axie was in there, he pooped under a log and I can't remove it due to not being able to reach it. Am I supposed to leave the waste there? (I finally lifted up the log and removed it)

4) The axolotl is 5 inches long. You would think he can see a little bit by now but he stayed in 1 corner of the tank without exploring the rest and finding the 4 hiding spots.

I'm sorry for all the questions. I was really excited to finally put the axolotls in the tank but it seems like I will have to wait a little longer until I figure out what's going on. Thanks in advance for any suggestions and advice!

Hi there,

First off, a little background. I thought my tank was finally cycled after 2 months and I was very happy. I add 3 drops of (28% aqueous) ACS grade ammonium hydroxide every day and test to see if nitrite and ammonia are zero 24 hours later. After my tank has proven it can handle this amount of ammonia in a day, I did a 75% water change and tried adding one of my axolotls.

Some hobbyists have used household ammonia to provide the ammonia source for cycling a new tank. However, this method should be used with caution. Household ammonia is very strong, so only very small amounts (drops) are needed. Any ammonia product containing detergent or other ingredients should obviously be avoided. The pH of the tank must be monitored, as ammonia can cause serious shifts in pH, especially in soft water.

Your method of tank cycling is rather different. I really would not recommend you add in ammonium hydroxide and a 75% water change is rather drastic. Why not do it the conventional way? Have a look at these links.

http://www.axolotl.org/requirements.htm

http://www.caudata.org/cc/articles/cyclingEDK.shtml

http://www.caudata.org/cc/articles/waterquality.shtml

Questions:

1) I removed a few white film things floating around the tank before adding the axolotl. Do you think this stuff is the beneficial bacteria so that's why the axolotl isn't happy?

Majority of the beneficial bacteria tend to colonise surfaces, be it tank glass, substrate or the log. Only a small number actually remain suspended in water. The 'white film thing' isn't typical. Are you sure its not dust or pollutants? Have you added anything else into the water?

2) Let's say you add axolotls to a cycled tank that is used to getting 1ppm ammonia daily. And your axolotl doesn't produce any waste for 1 or 2 days. Do the bacteria die in this time? Do they grow back quickly if they die and then come to some sort of equilibrium? I thought I was supposed to remove their waste but doesn't that mean the bacteria wont have any "food"?

Nitrogenous wastes can come from uneaten food, axolotl waste, rotting plant material, directly from your axolotl (via gills and skin), so absence of poop alone doesn't mean that there isn't a continual supply of ammonia.

Bacteria will die if you use water with chlorines or chloramines, some anitbiotics, some external chemical compounds added, or lack of aeration in your tank. Scrubbing it off your tank surfaces or running your filter media under hot water for eg. will also obviously remove it.

If you are patient and follow the cycling process properly, the bacteria colonies can reestablish itself and remain in equillibrium.

3) When my axie was in there, he pooped under a log and I can't remove it due to not being able to reach it. Am I supposed to leave the waste there? (I finally lifted up the log and removed it)

Yes, always try to remove any detritus and waste. They can foul up the water quiuckly.

4) The axolotl is 5 inches long. You would think he can see a little bit by now but he stayed in 1 corner of the tank without exploring the rest and finding the 4 hiding spots.

Axolotls tend to be stealth type hunters so they are generally rather still. Axolotls too have different personalities, some would be more inquisitive and active compared to others. Younger ones more so. A recent introduction to a new environment would also cause axies to slowly adapt, so they may start off being only in a small area. In time, they would explore around.

Cheers

Hi thanks for the reply.

I wouldn't say my cycling method is unconventional. It's the "typical" fishless cycling method but instead of decaying matter, I'm using ammonia from a bottle (some people use clear ammonia, but I can get my hands on ACS grade ammonia so why not eh?). ACS (American Chemical Society) Reagent grade ammonia pretty much guarantees nothing in there except ammonia and water (especially not any detergent). I bought this ammonia from a chemical supplier, not from a general store and it's not used for cleaning. Like I stated, I add only a few drops. Using ammonia (ammonium hydroxide solution) is arguably the most dependable source of ammonia without the risk of introducing mold into your tank, wouldn't you agree?

I still waited for the ammonia peak, then the nitrite peak, then both of those dropped to zero. And this took about 7 weeks. I add 1 ppm daily after the ammonia dropped to zero as recommended by other fishless cycling sources to continually feed the bacteria and the tank reduces the ammonia and nitrites to zero within 24 hours.

I tried doing cycling with decomposing shrimp before. And actually the shrimp was molding and I thought that was rather gross...not to mention I have no idea how much ammonia is added to the tank daily. I am a chemist, and I hate not knowing how much of anything is in my aquarium

I would say I was rather patient doing this for more than 2 months so I think the tank is cycled. Perhaps there is another answer?

And the film is seen on the tank glass also, where the water line meets the air. It's floating because after the water change, most things in the tank is disrupted. Your answers were very helpful and much appreciated.

Hi Tran,

I don't mean your method of using ammonia is unconventional, rather i meant that this method has to be used with caution and precision as well as constant monitoring of parameters.If you are very experienced with this method and have success in the past, there is nothing wrong with this method of fishless cycling. I was just concerned if you have got the proportion and monitoring under control. However, the 75% water change still seems rather drastic to me.

The main focus here is to determine why your axolotl appears stressed in this tank opposed to the old container. I guess this has to be tackled in the usual systematic approach.

It appears you have checked the water parameters carefully, so that shouldnt be the cause. You have also got the temperature and lighting under control, as well as provided hiding spots. Have you checked for excessive water currents? Also is the area the tank is placed subjected to vibrations of any sorts? (Ie near stereo, common corridor with heavy human traffic etc.) A new enviroment can also make the axie stressed during the first few days. This should subside over time.

Next lets explore the possibilities of whether your tank has established viable bacteria colonies. Firstly, we have to detemine if indeed there is a loss of bacteria in your tank. Run your hand over the tank interior surfaces, are they slimy? Slimy surfaces will tell you your bacteria is still happily colonised. If your water parameters also show the shifting dynamics of ammonia -> ultimately nitrate, yes your bacteria are still alive and well.

I am not implying you are not patient with the cycling, i was trying to elaborate that the bacteria will take time to grow as well. It is not an overnight process for sure and in the event that a large proportion of bacteria has died off, it takes time and patience for it to reestablish.

As for your theory of bacteria floating on surface, i am still more inclined to think its a combination of dust and other organic type proteins. Certainly stirring up the substrate will cause more material to be suspended and can contribute to the layer. What filter type are you using? Is it left running at all times? Do you have a tank cover?

Cheers

Darkmaverick said:

Hi Tran,

I don't mean your method of using ammonia is unconventional, rather i meant that this method has to be used with caution and precision as well as constant monitoring of parameters.If you are very experienced with this method and have success in the past, there is nothing wrong with this method of fishless cycling. I was just concerned if you have got the proportion and monitoring under control. However, the 75% water change still seems rather drastic to me.

Click to expand...

Yes you're right it's drastic, I dont know why I did a 75% water change. I think it was because there was a lot of nitrates building up. Next time I will do less, maybe 30%?

Darkmaverick said:

Also is the area the tank is placed subjected to vibrations of any sorts? (Ie near stereo, common corridor with heavy human traffic etc.) A new enviroment can also make the axie stressed during the first few days. This should subside over time.

Click to expand...

I'm afraid this is the case! It's in the living room, pretty near the TV and so there will be human traffic. There is no where else I can move the tank, do you think the axies will get used to it in time? If you really think they will continue to be stressed by the traffic and perhaps noise I will try to rearrange the flat around to accommodate them.

Darkmaverick said:

Next lets explore the possibilities of whether your tank has established viable bacteria colonies. Firstly, we have to detemine if indeed there is a loss of bacteria in your tank. Run your hand over the tank interior surfaces, are they slimy? Slimy surfaces will tell you your bacteria is still happily colonised. If your water parameters also show the shifting dynamics of ammonia -> ultimately nitrate, yes your bacteria are still alive and well.

Click to expand...

Yes most surfaces in the tank are pretty slimy, so maybe we're ok there. Dont worry I always use a water conditioner before the water changes.

Darkmaverick said:

I am not implying you are not patient with the cycling, i was trying to elaborate that the bacteria will take time to grow as well. It is not an overnight process for sure and in the event that a large proportion of bacteria has died off, it takes time and patience for it to reestablish.

Click to expand...

This is very true. Definitely an overnight process for sure!

Darkmaverick said:

As for your theory of bacteria floating on surface, i am still more inclined to think its a combination of dust and other organic type proteins. Certainly stirring up the substrate will cause more material to be suspended and can contribute to the layer. What filter type are you using? Is it left running at all times? Do you have a tank cover?

Click to expand...

Yeah, the proteins. Maybe it's the decomposed shrimp pieces that still havent rotted away . I'm running an external canister filter and I leave it on 24/7. I can't see any current produced by it, it's not a very powerful filter and it's had its flow reduced. No tank cover, but I dont fill it up all the way, more like 60% of the way.

Just friendly discussions eh? I always appreciate your advice Ray!

Hi Tran,

I am wondering about the white film. Does your filter output ripple the water's surface? If there is no movement on the water's surface, a film can build up that prevents oxygen exchange between the water and the air. This film isn't really white, though, but looks more like an oil slick except that when you disturb it, it doesn't immedieately run together like an oil slick would.

Other diverse comments: You will find that you need to pick up all of the decorations sooner or later to clean beneath them, particularly caves where the axolotl spends a lot of time (for obvious reasons). Axolotls exude waste from their skin, too, not just feces, so keeping your aquarium tidy will not entirely eliminate sources of ammonia.

-Eva

Hi Eva, the filter doesn't ripple the surface and I see the oily film you are talking about too (is this film bad?). But the white film is stuff that forms on the glass that has been in contact with water. The water evaporates a little and leaves this film. Looks to me like dead stuff because it's kind of slimy too. Also when you disturb the tank lots of stuff comes up and some of it looks like this film, kind of small pieces floating around. Maybe it's harmless but it doesn't look too good as you can imagine

Thanks for your comments about the wastes. It's good to hear that keeping the tank clean doesn't mean starving the bacteria. Cheers.

Hi Tran,

I am thinking that we may need to find better descriptions than the generic "film". I live in ze Vaterland, you see, and for every squeak a tennis shoe can make, there is a specific word.

So. Film number one, the "flower" (I looked up the German to English translation for it - yes, there is a German word for it) that builds up on an unmoved water surface. I think that it indicates, besides a lack of surface movement, an imbalance in water biology. As I understand it, gases (or bacteria? or non-gaseous chemicals?) released from within the aquarium build up, rise up, and collect on the surface. It usually comes from a heavy bioload, which I understand to be waste, or ammonia/nitrite. This film can become bad if the film is so widespread that oxygen can't move into the water from the surrounding air, so that the film becomes a plastic bag over the aquarium's head.

I know of two ways to correct this situation. If your filter has an output, direct the outflow to ripple the water surface. Otherwise, you can get a (drat, I don't remember just now what it is called in English) an aerator, a bubble stone? A rock connected to an air pump that gently lifts bubbles through the aquarium to disrupt the water's surface. Ok, I know three ways - if you have floating plants trapping such a film, you wait until the tank cycles further and it should correct itself with time.

Film number two, the white film at the water line. This sounds to me like the lime deposit from hard water. Hard water evaporates and leaves a chalky watermark on the glass. This is not a problem at all. Actually, the hardness acts as a buffer against fluctuations in pH, so it is a good thing, helping to protect your axolotl against the stress of changes in pH levels. It's just not particularly aesthetic, so you can get rid of it by scrubbing it (no cleansers allowed, just a scratchy sponge, please) after you have let off some water during a water change.

Film number three is white stuff floating up when you stir up the tank. I would be inclined to think that this is true nasty stuff - didn't you mention using shrimp? I also noticed in my newest tank, where I didn't wash the sand first, that the sand itself made filmy flakes at the start, so maybe it is dust? In any case, when the tank is stirred up, you can drag a net back and forth through the water to catch floating things.

I am not sure how much of this helps and apologize for the long post and chatty style. Just trying to brainstorm, I guess.

-Eva

Hi Tran,

Quite simply it can take a few days for an axolotl to settle into a new environment especially if it is alot larger than the one it has been used to.

If your water parameters are good and you have sorted the "film" issue then I suggest you try again. Keep an eye on your axolotl, but I would suggest that given a couple of days to acclimatise it will settle and all will be well in its world.

Good Luck

@ Eva, as usual, you have helped heaps!! :happy: Yes I think I'm getting the lime deposit and a combination of the nasty stuff. Thanks for the info on whether or not they are harmful. A relief I would say. Now all I have to do is fish out all that stuff!

P.S. no worries on the long post, I love reading this forum. And I'm guilty of the long posts too, lol.


@ianclick, Thanks for your suggestion, I will give it another shot some time in the future and will be a little less paranoid next time.

ianclick said:

Quite simply it can take a few days for an axolotl to settle into a new environment especially if it is alot larger than the one it has been used to.

If your water parameters are good and you have sorted the "film" issue then I suggest you try again. Keep an eye on your axolotl, but I would suggest that given a couple of days to acclimatise it will settle and all will be well in its world.

Click to expand...

I agree with Ian. How long was your axolotl in the tank before you noticed the signs of stress? Have you tested the nitrates in your tank at any point? I would also make a point of using a gravel vacuum to clean up all that detritus and stuff you see when you disturb the water and I would recommend repositioning your filter as Eva said to agitate the surface.