Axie hasn't eaten for 5 weeks

need some help. I'll give some history first

My son and i are new to Axolotl's. we set up the tank 5 mts ago and let it cycle for 4 weeks before putting Fluffy into the tank. to start with under the advise from the pet shop we brought him from we had gravel in the bottom but have now changed it to sand. as we have now learnt the pet shop has given us a lot of bad advise. we have also fitted a spray bar to the fillter. we do a 15% water change every 2nd day (can't seem to keep water quality any other way). do our best to maintain water temp tank is in coolest room away from sun light and use ice bottles on hot days but it has risen to mid to high 20s a couple of times. some very hot days here in Perth.

Fluffy stop eating 5 weeks ago after a very hot spell. Prior to this he would eat 1/2 a cube of beef heart every 2nd day with out fuss. He was also very active at night. once he stoped he became very inactive. we tried different foods after reading on this forum to vary his deit. we have tried earthworms, brood worms and axie peletts he show intrest in the earthworms and ate one but latter brought it back up. After about 2 weeks of not eating we put him in the fridge as per the info on this site. he seemed to perk up but still did not eat. after 2 week in the fridge i found a vet here in perth that would look at him. She wasn't sure what was wrong but gave him a ultra sound to make sure that he hadn't swollowed some gravel (it was all clear) and gave him a injection of Baytril and has got us to give him orally a drop of Metacam and 0.01ml of Baytril for 4 days today been the last day. she also surgested that we put him back in his tank which i did yesterday. He is still not eating and now he is floating at the top of the tank a lot and is very inactive again.

i have also included some photos of Fluffy and his tank.

Any suggestions will be great as I am worried we may lose him if he dosn't eat soon and my son will be very upset as he has become very attached to Fluffy and it took him 12mts of saving his pocket money to buy every thing.

Thanks

Rob and Brendan

Hi Rob,

I would move the axolotl back into the fridge to help him relax and recuperate.

To stop the axolotl floating, put enough water so the axolotl is completely immersed but is able to touch the ground - this will help destress the axie.

The optimum temperature range for axolotls is 14-18C. The axolotl will tolerate temperatures up to 24C.

If the tank is over 24C, this hostile environment will subject the axolotl to a great deal of stress which leads to illness and will likely very quickly lead to death.

This article (here) provides many cooling tactics for aquariums, a must read for Australian Axolotl keepers. If you cannot keep the tank below 24C, you may need to consider keeping the axolotl in the fridge for the duration of heat waves.

Axolotls can happily live in the fridge for months on end if necessary.

Hi Rob and Brendan,

I will do what i can to try help. I understand how a child can get very attached to a pet. I was and always will be one myself. If fact, if you want any additional help/advice, you can private message me anytime. I will answer them promptly.

Now lets look at the problem your axie is facing. The three main complaints are inappetance, floating and lethargy/depressed mentation.

Lets explore all the known causes and then do a checklist to see if that area has been fulfilled.

Environment

1) Water chemistry - Have you invested in a water chemistry test kit? If not, i recommend a colourimetric solution type test kit. Do not get a dipstick one. There are master kits available, about A$50 such as API which would have all the tests you require. Poor water chemistry is one of the leading causes of the signs you are seeing now. You should do regular water chemistry monitoring, at least once a week, personally i do it twice a week, once mid week and once end of the week. You want to aim for 0 ammonia and nitrites and <60 nitrates. That would indicate good water quality and a fully cycled tank.

2) Water currents - It appears you are already on the right track on this one. As a general rule take a look at whether your aquatic plants (live or synthetic) sway. If they do sway, the water currents are still too excessive.

3) Water temperature - Again, you already know what you are doing. Thats good. Look at the list Jacq provided on cooling methods. Ideally you want to stay around 18 degree celsius, anything over 22 degree celsius over a prolonged period can cause stress and illness in more susceptible animals. Another thing you want to avoid is wild temperature fluctuations. If you use ice bottles, you want to try aim for 1 degree drop per hour. Too rapid a temperature drop is stressful itself.

4 - Substrate - Good that you are using sand now and off with the gravel. Good that your axie has no impaction.

5 - Hiding places - Have you provided at least 2 hiding places? Axies need them to feel secure and again being left 'exposed' without a hiding spot can create stress and subsequently immuno compromise due to a rise in stress hormone called cortisol.

6 - Tank mates - Are there any other animals living in the same tank? Aggressive animals can cause stress and also potentially spread diseases and parasites if not properly quarantined beforehand.

7 - Scary stuff - Is your tank situated in a place with bright lights that go on and off or has high human traffic or exposed to vibrations such as from a stereo? These can stress the axie.

The abovementioned are the environmental factors contributing to stress and illness in axies. Try fix any underlying problems as you want a permanent solution rather than a temporary quick fix.

Nutrition

Next i shall talk about nutrition. Beef heart is suitable as occasional treats but not as a staple. Staple food should include earthworms, bloodworms, blackworms and axie pellets. Treats include bits of shrimp or fish meat, beef heart etc. It is best to feed a variety of food to ensure the best nutrition. You can mix and match from the list above.

Live food can be used to tempt inappetant axies. Live earthworms and blackworms/bloodworms are rather effective in stimulating their appetite due to their wriggly motion. The axies detect prey by vibration and movement. If your axie is spitting out the earthworm, perhaps try offering a smaller earthworm or chop it up. Blackworms are easier to consume so you might like to try that as well.

If you are fridging your axie, and find that it doesnt want to eat, you can try offering a mash. Try this method. Blend earthworms, blackworms, moistened axie pellets, bits of shrimp, fish, beef heart etc all together in a food processor. You should get a doughy mash. Roll the mash into pea sized portions. The pre pulverised food particles will faciliate digestion due to the larger surface area the digestive enzymes can work on. The mash is nutritionally complete, has the smell to entice the axies, can retain the shape in water, and can be stored easily.

Fridging

Fridging your axie will destress it, boost its immune system and render harmful pathogens (both bacterial and fungal) less viable.

- Set your fridge to about 5 degree celsius.
- Put your axie in a container large enough to allow it to stretch its limbs and tail comfortably.
- Fill with fresh dechlorinated water enough to submerge it but not allowing it to float.
- Cover with a lid. You can use a perforated lid or netting to prevent it jumping out.
- Use a tea towel to cover it to keep the environment dark.
- Perform 100% water changes daily with clean dechlorinated water.
- You can pre prepare bottles of water in the fridge.
- Continue to offer a variety of nutritious food daily. Try live wriggly food like blackworms, bloodworms, earthworms. You can also try the usual pellet, offer treats of shrimp and fish etc. Otherwise you can also blend everything in a food processor and then roll the resultant mash into a pea sized ball to try offer your axie. Remove uneaten food within 20 min.

Fridging will reduce the rate of body condition loss.

Veterinary Treatment

My treatment protocol is slightly different from your vet. I am not saying he or she is wrong, its just different methods. I would just like to give you some general tips.

Personally i will not use Baytril (enrofloxacin). I find that there are other antibiotic combinations that will offer a better coverage, more effective and are safer with less side effects. I would only use antibiotics only if there is an indication. Otherwise side effects and resistance already outweigh the pros.

I will use a combination of amikacin or timentin and pipercillin for prophylactic coverage. Enrofloxacin can have side effects like kidney damage because its nephrotoxic, can cause tissue sloughing because its cytotoxic and can cause damage to cartilage.

I would also prefer to use fluid therapy (amphibian ringers solution) in conjuction when im giving a nephrotoxic drug, just to support the kidney blood perfusion.

However that said, enrofloxacin can be still effective in prophylactic coverage. Its just that you have to be aware there are side effects.

Metacam (meloxicam) is an anti-inflammatory and analgesia, belonging to a class called Non Steroidal anti-inflammatory. I haven't seen any pharmaceutical safety trials on axolotls. From my understanding metacam can cause side effects such as gastrointestinal bleeding and toxicity as well as platelet dysfunction. In many domestic species such as dogs and cats, gastrointestinal signs like vomitting, diarrhoea, and gastric ulceration can occur. It can also cause kidney and liver toxicity. However, some references has suggested that some analgesics like opiods, carprofen and meloxicam can be used safely in amphibians, although it seems that only opioids are proven to exert an analgesic effect.

I have not used metacam on axolotls before so i cannot really comment. Because its off label use, I am not sure at what dose rate will there be adequate anti-inflammatory and analgesic coverage in axies without causing side effects. Axolotls are also rather tiny and its really difficult to dose them correctly and safely. I would just like you to monitor of any faecal samples , check whether they are loose or black and tarry (which means occult blood or intestinal bleeding). Also check out for little red spots (petechial haemorrhages) on the body which indicate platelet dysfunction. Metacam can still be useful to relieve pain and inflammation if used correctly.

Cheers.

Hi

Thanks for your replys.

In reply to your check list.

Environment

1. I have the API test kits that cover PH, ammonia and nitrites. I test the water at least 2 times a week some times 3. I will be getting a nitrates test kit soon. As for the other test PH has not been a problem but the ammonia and nitrites are between 0.25 and 0.50. We have had this tank set up for 5 mts and they don't want to seem to level out. The only way I can controll these is with very regular water changes.

2. I do belive we had to much current in the past. The plant we have in the tank does not move at all and when i pick up sand with the vac it falls straight to the bottom with out drifting.

3. Wwe have been carefull not to have to fast or to big a temp change but at time, it is a challenge. We seem not to be able to get it under 20C. I have 4 x 1l soft drink bottles well cleaned and filled with declorinised water that we rotate thought the tank when some one is home to do so. When left all day we wrap the ice bottle with bubble wrap to slow down the melt. I will be making a screen top for the tank on the weekend and hope this will help as well. Brendan is also saving up to buy a external filter and chiller soon.

4. Thanks. Was very disapointed with the pet shop because the info sheet they gave us said sand or large gravel in excess of 20mm but when my wife question them about the gravel they assured us that the 5 to 10mm gravel was fine.

5. Will buy Fluffy a second hiding place on the weekend if not before.

6. He is and always has been in the tank by himself. I did notice to night while trying to feed him that there are very small wiggleing specs in the water. They kind of look like mossie wigglers.

7. He is in my sons room. The curtains stay drawn most of the day and has very little traffic. he does not yet listen to loud music (hopefully will stay that way)

Nutrition

Yes we were only feeding him beef heart to start with on the pet shops advise but learned that it was not ideal and been trying as many types of food that we can find earthworm, bloodworm, samon, pellets. I will try your mash.

Fridging

He has been in the fridge for the last 3 weeks. He seemed to perk up but would still not eat. My vet suggested to put him back in the tank which I did last night. As of 1/2 an hour ago he is now not floating as much and is starting to swim a bit again but has still not eaten. I am thinking of putting him back in the fridge if he dosn't improve in the next few days.

Veterinary Treatment

The treatment have now finished and as yet does not seem to have any affect.

As for poos i have not seen him do one in 5 weeks.

thanks for the great advise.

Rob and Brendan

Hi again,

I think you are already doing a good job trying to do the best you can.

A note on cooling. You can perhaps use a mesh netting type tank screen instead of a full glass lid. That would enhance evaporation and aid in cooling. You can also mount small clip on fans on the tank's edge to further help in evaporative cooling.

How big is your tank? I just want to rule out that the water parameters are not due to a tank volume that is too small and hence fluctuates easily.

If its mosquito larvae, it would not be too much of a concern. Actually they could be eaten by smaller axies.

When you are going to put your axie back into main tank, be sure to equilibrate the temperature first. From the fridge, you can just leave the container of axie with water out in ambient temperature with the lid. Let the water warm up gradually before you put the axie back. Alternatively, you can float the axie in one of those clear aquarium bags in the main tank water to allow the cold fridge water to equilibrate to the same temperature as the water in the main tank.

Continue to monitor your axie for signs of illness and stress. From your description, sounds like your axie is on the mend. If it starts becoming more active and doesn't float as much any more, i would expect its appetite to pick up accordingly in due time, provided you provide optimal tank conditions.

Cheers.

Have you tried live food? If earth worms are to big you can cut them up. You can also put some live plant's in the tank. That will help a little with the water. Hoe deep is the sand? If it's to deep it can get air bubbles in it and let out gas into the water. You just need to stir it up once in a while.

Hi Rob and Brendan,

Its fantastic you are making plans to get an external canister filter and a marine chiller. Although costly at first, it does pay for itself in the long run. Meanwhile what type of filter are you using? Can you incorporate chemical filtration into the filter unit such as a filter sheet, cartridge or granules of zeolite and activated carbon? That would help with reducing the amount of ammonia and nitrites in your tank.

Provided that you have adequate lighting and can keep plants alive, live plants too can buffer against ammonia spikes as they use them preferentially as a source of nutrient themselves. Plants that thrive in the cold and dark axie tank environment include java moss, java fern, elodea, anubians and some species of amazon sword plants.

kclinton made a point about deep sand substrates which can trap gases. These gases tend to be the by product of anaerobic bacteria activity so they sometimes contain stinky sulphurous gases that reminds you of rotten eggs. One inch of sand coverage is sufficient otherwise you can just prod along the sand substrate to release pockets of trapped gases. The gases themselves should not contribute significantly to ammonia or nitrite levels provided you are meticulous with siphoning up detritus and uneaten food.

Cheers.

Hi Everyone

Good news Fluffy has started to eat again. Since my last post he has eaten 3 earth worms.

In reply to your questions.

The tank is 600mm x 300mm x 300mm. i work this out to be a volume of 54l (pet store told my wife it was 70l)

I am useing a Fluval 2 Plus under water filter. i have made a spray bar for it that runs along the back of the tank and have set the filter at it lowest flow seting. It also has a activate carcoal pad in it. I also belive that this filter is contributing to my water temp problems because by morning the tank is alway a few degrees high than the room temp. I will be making a screen top and add some fans over the weekend and hope this will help offset the pumps influence.

The sand is appox 25mm deep. I will be also look at getting some more plants.

I have been cutting the earth worms into smaller peices. This has seemed to do the trick. I will be makeing some of Ray's mash this weekend and will also try and find some other live food options.

Thanks for all your advise I feel a lot more confidant that we are doing our best for him.

Thank you

Rob and Brendan

Hi Rob and Brendan,

Thank you for updating us. You are doing a great job.

Firstly have you went back to the pet shop to complain? Besides giving you bad advice, they actually sold you a tank on misinformation! There is absolutely no excuse for them not to know the volume of the tank because its really elementary mathematics to work out the volume based on tank dimensions.

Some submersible filters do contribute to more heat being generated. Have a look at this link on information about filter types. It can be useful if you intend to get another type of filter in future.
http://www.caudata.org/cc/articles/filters.shtml

A good appetite is definitely a good sign. If your axies are receptive to being fed earthworms, i would suggest you stick with it. There is no necessity for the mash in this case. Try feeding them more earthworms. If you can get your hands on live blackworms, do try them too. A lot of aquarium shops do stock them in the refridgerated live food section.

Cheers.

Hi Rayson

Yes I did complain. Not only did they misqoute the tank size they also sold us a filter that was not up to the task and gravel not suited to use with Axies.

The most distressing part of the whole thing was the fact that my 9 year old son had saved up his poket, birthday and christmas money for the last 12mts and had the pleasure of spending it on inncorect items.

I had a win. After many years of handling customer problem in my job it help me know the right things to say. They upgraded the filter at no cost. Got a $100 filter for the cost of the $20 filter and got to keep the old one as well and got a full refund on the gravel. As for the tank I didn't push that as I didn't want to have to start again and once I had check the price at different pet shops Brendan had paid the right price for a 55l tank. Also after reading the houseing article I belived it was big enough for Fluffy. I also convinced them that they should not be selling animals that they knew little about as it was abuse and if they continuded to do so I would take it further. When I last checked they had not restocked with Axies. They also lost a good customer due to the fact that I was buying also my pet supplies from them. (Dog, 3 Birds, and a Rat)

Again many thanks for your advise I have learnt a great deal from this site.

Rob

Fluffy is now back to his old self. He is eating with out hesitation and is actively swimming around. We have also put a 2nd hide in his tank as well. The screen top with a fan is also helping to keep the water temp down. We are now able to keep it below 20C. Still having problems with ammonia and nitrites but controlling them with 20% water changes every 2nd day also got a nitrate test and nitrates are with in the range that has been indicated. We have put some plants in the tank and hope this will help to control ammonia and nitrites.

Thanks for all your help

Rob and Brendan

Great to hear such good news! A happy ending!

I'am so glad he is eating!!!