PLAY with your lotl!

I hatched Maxalotl (Max to her friends) on Easter Sunday 2008. She lived in a glass-bottomed aquarium with her brother Footslalotl (AKA Footsie - who had the appendage eaten off) until too many eggs were laid! Now Max lives alone. She seemed 'down', a little lonely and would always swim up to the front for a chat and some attention, and up to the top to have her nose tickled. Well, I thought, what might she like that would not harm her but might amuse her. So, she was given a little viewing platform (upside-down terracotta planter) and when she wants to watch TV she hops up there and can see across the room. I then gave her three plastic cat balls. They are very lightweight with no sharp edges. It's soooo sweet to catch her amusing herself with a quiet game of football when she thinks I'm not looking.

Anyone who says axolotls don't have 'feelings' is wrong. VERY wrong. Max CRAVES attention and company and will 'beg' to any passing human. She knows certain people's faces (me in particular) and will follow me up and down the room. And yes, she does love to play! So, I'd recommend it to everyone. Play with your lotl. They may love it too - once the initial fear of unknown objects wears off. It took Max about 2 days.

Any suggestions of other things she might like?

That's great to hear! I knew that some types of fish would "play", but not axolotls. My betta always loves to play with his floating hmster tube and floating ping-pong balls. However, I'm not sure those would suit axolotls as they are bottom dwellers. My Taricha granulosa will interact with me too, especially when I wiggle my finger. Anyways, thanks for this idea. I might try getting my newts some "toys".

My two seem to enjoy the air stone..both will swim up to it and position them selves amongst the bubbles.

Thats really cool. I never heard of a caudate playing! When will she be with her friend again?

Nice though the thought might be, i really think you´re humanizing their behaviour. Caudates in captivity tend to react to anything moving with encreased activity. Most of my animals become very excited when they see me moving, but that´s not because they recognize me and crave my attention...it´s a simple assotiation to food.

Caudates are rather primitive animals, with no social behaviour, so they simply don´t have the capacity to develop intimate relations with other creatures, not with their own species, nor with humans.

As for suggestions, how about some natural stuff? Plants specially. They like hiding in the plants, plus they are of great help to keep the water healthy.

Thats a very valid point Azhael.

I feel that there is a more fundamental principle. Perception or view point.

There are many and varied stories of the humanisation of pets. People who claim all sorts of behaviours way outside the scientific norm. It wouldn't matter what scientific evidence was presented they would still view it in the way they choose to.

I think that if the humanisation or attributing human behaviours to animals, enhances the relationsip between keeper and kept. Then that is a beautiful thing.

azhael said:

... that´s not because they recognize me and crave my attention...it´s a simple assotiation to food.

Caudates are rather primitive animals, with no social behaviour, so they simply don´t have the capacity to develop intimate relations with other creatures, not with their own species, nor with humans...

Click to expand...

If this IS true - how do you explain that Max 'recognises' certain people? How do you explain that she plays 'football' on her own, yet has no food reward from it and how do you explain 'begging' for a nose tickle? There is NO incentive there apart from 'contact'. I see the same behaviour in my dog, cat and bird. There are FIVE SPECIES in my home and ALL show similar behaviour. Why, therefore do you accept it from one species and not another, when there is adequate behavioural evidence?

I believe you are VERY mistaken when you say they are without capacity for interraction. It does depend upon the individual axolotl, as only one of my two displays this behaviour.

There are many MANY common misconceptions about animal behaviour: dogs see in B&W for example is total nonsense. As we humans develop, we are beginning to realize that other creatures communicate in ways we have not yet observed or quanitified. That does not mean that up until WE recognised they were sentient beings, they weren't. That means WE were lacking in our knowledge of their behaviours.

ianclick said:

... People who claim all sorts of behaviours way outside the scientific norm. It wouldn't matter what scientific evidence was presented they would still view it in the way they choose to...

Click to expand...

I think you will find there is no such thing as a Scientific Norm. Science is a changing medium; as more 'evidence' is observed, the accepted 'norm' you speak of is altered to assimilate that data.

Study of Scientific and Evidential data is not Anthropomorphism, no matter how much it contradicts current understanding.

I like your view !
When creatures come to live with me, they are never text book.
I once had a Rat & Ferrit that were best friends(sleep,eat,play,live) TOGETHER?
So, I'm listening, and experementing as well !

Hi Sarah and Rich,

I think the point that Azhael was making is that physiologicallly axolotls do not have the capacity fo the kind of higher thought and behaviours you mentioned.

The point I was making was if it makes a person happy it doesn't matter

Call it animal enrichment behaviours or animal enrichment activity and let it go.

try floating ping pong balls, maybe rig up a ribbon and a lever that drops food when tugged from below?

SarahandRich said:

If this IS true - how do you explain that Max 'recognises' certain people? How do you explain that she plays 'football' on her own, yet has no food reward from it and how do you explain 'begging' for a nose tickle? There is NO incentive there apart from 'contact'. I see the same behaviour in my dog, cat and bird. There are FIVE SPECIES in my home and ALL show similar behaviour. Why, therefore do you accept it from one species and not another, when there is adequate behavioural evidence?

I believe you are VERY mistaken when you say they are without capacity for interraction. It does depend upon the individual axolotl, as only one of my two displays this behaviour.

There are many MANY common misconceptions about animal behaviour: dogs see in B&W for example is total nonsense. As we humans develop, we are beginning to realize that other creatures communicate in ways we have not yet observed or quanitified. That does not mean that up until WE recognised they were sentient beings, they weren't. That means WE were lacking in our knowledge of their behaviours.

Click to expand...

How can you be sure she recognizes people? What exactly are the observations you´ve made that support this theory?
I think she "plays" alone with the ball because as any other caudate, they spend their lives moving around, smelling for food. If you walk by, you create an stimuli, movement means food. Then the stimuli goes away but the axolotl´s brain is still set on "there has to be food around, something moved" and therefore she becomes active and starts searching. She then encounters the ball and the rutinary inspection starts. This is not playing...this is inspection.
About the begging for a nose tickle, i really think you are confusing again with a simple and very natural association with food. She sees you over the tank, she sees a hand, something moving...the natural thing for a captive, stablished axolotl is to go see what that is(you don´t want to miss it! the other 50 times, that meant food!) . In fact i thing by tickling her nose but not feeding her you are just making an axolotl a very deceived creature xD Just kidding.
Dogs, cats and birds are extremely different than amphibians. Both mammals and birds have social behaviours to some extent, and a FAR more developed brain.
The capacity for social behaviour is cruzial in the lives of mammals and birds....but has no place at all in an axolotl´s life.

I deeply agree with you. Science can never be considered as something dogmatic(anyone claiming to own truth is wrong). It fluctuates, changes and evolves, always adapting. That however doesn´t mean that science is a bunch of rubbish....
It´s bassed on observations, repeated experiments, etc...
Believe me you are not the first person to observe axolotl behaviour...or any other amphibian for that matter.
Don´t take it as a personal attack, as i assure you i have nothing against your point of view, except the fact that i think you are letting yourself be influenced by your feelings towards that animal(which is making you mistake basic feeding associations with complex behaviours), which on the other hand is absolutely normal, and says a lot about you.

On a different note, i insist, you should provide her with more stuff. The tank looks awfully simple, which is good for cleaning and feeding, but it could really use some live plants...they also make your life easier so it´s a win win situation xD

Relax... Even with a simpler primitive mind. Still require entertainment. I have 2 parrots , 5 chihuahuas and axolotls and Guppies and as their keeper I feel it is my duty to keep my critters entertained that is part of good animal husbandry. My axies have a couple of cat balls that they ignore.... Maybe one day ... but they love the bubble bar! They rub their heads on it and drift upwards I think it feels good... They go over and over again. They do not crave my attention or that of their tank mates but they need enrichment too.IMO.

They have a cave and plants which makes them "feel safe" they also have guppies to eat this requires that they get up and go to eat! This is enrichment and yes it makes they "feel" fulfilled, productive... happy because they have something to do. (we all need a purpose).

As Ahzael said axies, delightful as they are, simply don't have the wiring for that kind of interaction.


I too think the tank looks awful, is it the photograph or is really that thin?

Hi all,

I read this thread with much interest. As a vet, medical researcher and new academic (yes im finally teaching at uni), i often see a spectrum of people with strong opinions on animal behaviour and welfare. There really is no right or wrong, good or bad, just as long as the animal's welfare is taken into consideration and intention is right.

I personally feel there is still a lot of research and discoveries to be made. I recently read a book called "Alex and me", about a scientist's bond with her research subject, an african grey parrot, which demonstrated how much we still do not fully understand, regarding animal behaviour and the capacity in animals to learn or 'feel'.

To err on the safe side would be to still provide environmental enrichment. This can be hiding spots, little 'toys' etc. To what extent the axies use them to express their natural behaviour is one aspect, but to ensure they have them to use at disposal is another.

A pet should also bring joy to the owner. Thats what human-animal(pet) bonds are for. I too am conflicted sometimes, having to view animals in a clinical, emotionally detached, unbiased scientific manner professionally and balancing that with a strong innate affinity and love for animals which drew me to them in the first place. I am not afraid to admit, im a regular dog cuddler, baby speak to animals person when i am not in my vet coat.

Cheers.

I know Chantico isn't a little person in an axolotl suit but I have to admit I sometimes thinks she interacts with me too - she waves when I wave, follows my finger on the outside glass and seems a bit of an attention seeker! Definatly going to get her a few of those little plactic ball toys for kittens to bash around the tank because she already loves clambering all over her plants, rocks, etc. What a lovely idea!

I think i´ve been hugely missunderstood. I never meant to inply that what Sarah is doing is wrong in ANY way. I think it´s great! I think it says a lot about her that she cares enough to think about the possibility of her axolotl being bored or understimulated.
I just don´t agree with her opinion of axolotls being able of social behaviours or complex emotions, because evidence says otherwise....that´s all.

I can't think the same way that some people do about the axolotls. Do they recognise that large shape outside the tank as the food bringer? Probably. Do they nose things about the tank - sure.

Do they crave our hands to cuddle them? NO. The same people who think amphibians crave cuddling have the same mindset as people who think the 7 ft snake that crawled into bed with them did it for emotional comfort - rather than warmth. The difference is the people with amphibians are going to die after interacting with their animal. But their animal might die after interacting with the human.

My axies have enrichment activities or as I call it, entertainment. Live food swims about their tank, live food is buried in their substrate. They have something to do between feedings.

P.S. my daughter thinks the snail in my mother-in-laws garden recognises her & comes when called. She's 6.

Does this mean I can stop trying to teach my axolotls how to play canasta?

-Eva

I found this website on a really old thread it's worth taking a look athttp://www.spyyk.blogspot.com/ (just scroll down to spyyk toys)










chris:wacko: