Lives Shortened in Captivity?

Is it true that all of our caudates' lives are being shortened by being in captivity, whether they were CB or WC, simply because they ARE in captivity? We all know (or should) the horrors the WC has to face on the way to the pet store by now (and sometimes while there too). But are we also harming them after we take them home, with a balanced diet with the variety we can not possibly provide as well as the one they would find in "nature"? With not being allowed to roam free, and being stuck in an aquarium "replica" of what we interpret their "native conditions" to be like? With the inevitable noise, physical disturbances, different conditions (temperature spikes and drops...NOT the same as nature), handling, lack of variety in the diet, boredom, foreign stimuli, chemicals, synthetics, etc. not encountered in the wild? What do you think?

I know the reverse is true for some animals, such as the sugar glider because if left in the wild, they have their natural predators and man to deal with and the destruction of their habitat, etc. If left in the wild, their life expectancy is 5-7 years. If in captivity, it rises to 12-15 years!

In the case of hermit crabs for example, they can live up to 30 years in the wild, but in captivity, due to the horrid conditions they usually face on their way to the pet store, they have their lifespans usually shortened to about 6-9 MONTHS. They also do not have the varied diet they would in the wild, and sometimes have very few shells to choose from and will cram themselves in too small of a shell, get stuck and die. The shells are often painted and the paint is toxic and eaten when it chips off. They can't breed in captivity like they can in the ocean.

With caudates, are we shortening their lives by "keeping" them, no matter how "close" we are to keeping them in their "natural state" in captivity?

While I think that might be the case with people who are using inappropriate husbandry, I think the vast majority of animals are actually better off in captivity. Axolotls can have a life span of 20 years, while Japanese firebelly newts have been known to live almost 40 years!

Some caudates can live longer in captivity, because they don't need to face predation. Some caudates such as N. Kaiseri can die spontaneously, from what I heard.

I think that a caudate surviving to a "ripe old age" is rare, both in the wild and in captivity. In the wild it is rare because of natural selection; only a few survive the first year, and from those survivors only a few live to be very old. In captivity it is rare because every keeper has occasional disasters that wipe out a tank or a whole collection. So it's really hard to say in which environment would give them a longer life.

Melmo said:

Some caudates such as N. Kaiseri can die spontaneously, from what I heard.

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I'm wondering where this idea comes from. Any sal (particularly a new import) can die unexpectedly. I don't think there is anything unusual about kaiseri in this regard.

I have often seen it printed that Japanese firebelly newts can live in captivity for 30 to 40 years.

I am left wondering if their close relative, the Chinese firebelly newts are the same. Even the caresheet on THIS site leaves us wondering...

Does anyone really KNOW??

I don't know, really. I know I've raised other baby "wild" animals that were orphaned, squirrels in particular, and read that their captive lifespan was upwards of 12 years, but in the wild, most males die w/in a year due to predation and the fact that they'll wander off in search of mates, territory, and deal w/ our hazards (cars.) They also had to search for food, not always readily available. So, it was difficult to decide to release my orphans through the years, but best. My girls stayed close and are still fed by hand by us in the backyard.

I would think that the newts would be slightly better off in captivity due to readily available food, no threat of predation and no chance the habitat will be destroyed for a hotel next week. I've been reading here, though, that what I thought was their best food (thawed frozen bloodworms) may not be enough??? I suppose I'm headed towards blackworms for the adults and the larva soon...

It's a trade-off, I guess. The facts are that there are probably pretty wide temp swings at some unexpected points in their wild lives, but I guess such fluctuations in our little set-ups are less forgiving. There's food always given, but not a huge variety. I'm curious now that you've raised the question.

What's the longest captive C. Orientalis known here? If mine have reproduced, they're already 3-4 years old?

Dana

I heard that earthworms or nightcrawlers (chopped up and gut-loaded) are best. I plan to try to feed my little guys earthworms/nightcrawlers especially after the bait shops open, gut-loaded mealworms (they hate waxworms), gut-loaded crickets, thawed bloodworms with powdered calcium added, and maybe attempt white worms or whatever they are called.

I do try to dust all their food with calcium. I may also try a powdered herp. supplement, but not sure I would need one if I gut-load their food first with the Fluker's cricket supplement.

I will try to put a piece of newt pellet in the chopped up nightcrawler, but I am not sure they would appreciate the taste. Otherwise, I will just have to gut-load the worms ahead of time.

Dana, I think that what you do for squirrels and other wildlife is awesome!

I would like to know if anyone knows how long a C. Orientalis (Chinese firebelly newt) is expected to live on average in captivity?

Longevity data for reptiles and amphibians is really hard to come by. They live for so long that people tend not to keep track, or the animal passes to multiple owners. For caudates it's particularly hard because most of them start as wild-caught of unknown age to begin with.

There was a project that tracked animals in captivity for many years, but sadly they eventually stopped taking data. The archives page for sals is here:
http://www.pondturtle.com/lsala.html
The oldest C. orientalis they have recorded is 9 years (starting from WC of unknown age), but there is only one record.

I'm trying to accumulate records that people post on this forum. This kind of data is less reliable than the data collected by the website above, but we have some additional data points:

chevychase: 14 years, firebelly (species unknown)
http://www.caudata.org/forum/showthread.php?p=172080

spoons: 22 years C. orientalis
http://www.caudata.org/forum/showthread.php?t=58540

ml98133: 22 years C. pyrrhogaster (?)
http://www.caudata.org/forum/showthread.php?t=50534

MN99: 27 years C. ensicauda
http://www.caudata.org/forum/showthread.php?t=49775

E. Ellwood: 23 years, C. pyrrhogaster
http://www.caudata.org/forum/messages/7/54913.html

Amy Barroll: 18 years, C. pyrrhogaster
http://www.caudata.org/forum/showthread.php?t=37478

Eileen MP: 14 years, C. orientalis
http://www.caudata.org/forum/showthread.php?t=59291

Keith Petrosky: 11 years, C.orientalis
http://www.caudata.org/forum/showthread.php?p=181061

Of course none of this answers the question of whether these critters live longer in captivity than in the wild. Nor does it reveal the "average" lifespan in captivity, as I'm sure that the majority don't live this long. These are the lucky ones.

Jennewt said:

Of course none of this answers the question of whether these critters live longer in captivity than in the wild. Nor does it reveal the "average" lifespan in captivity, as I'm sure that the majority don't live this long. These are the lucky ones.

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Hi,

Slightly at a tangent, but I think this is an important point when trying to come up with a "reasonable" lifespan. In any species (including humans) there will be a wide range of ages and variation in how an animal ages. For example, if (a very big if, without data) the same sort of range applies as with mammals or birds, then a maximum range of approx 27 years for a Cynops species would suggest (to me) possibly similar to a cat or cockatiel - some will show "old age" problems at 7 or 8 years old, most will start at around 12-15 years, a few will go on to 18-20, and the odd few will reach 20 + years (other views may quibble with the figures, of course!).

As I said, this assumes similar aging pattern, which may or my not be true (In fact, I would guess not, as human selective breeding has influenced these species and early aging problems may be associated with this).

Are these older individuals notably "old" (less active etc)? For example, I've never seen a 20 + year old cockatiel or cat that wasn't "obviously" old and slowed down (cue anecdotal rebuttals!). If these older caudates are still normally active (admittedly more difficult to assess than with a cat or cockatiel!), then potential lifespan may be more. Or they may have similar age-related degenerations which aren't apparent. Or they may have a much more tightly bunched "potential" life span. Data (e.g. serial blood analysis throughout life, as well as a range of longevity records with cause of death) would be interesting but just isn't available. It would need a large range of data from a number of keepers to give much guidance on this.

For a more detailed general discussion of lifespan, see

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maximum_life_span

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_expectancy

Hope this helps.

Bruce.

I recall that some of these old age newts still breed and lay fertile eggs?

Newts needs are easy to accomodate compared to many other herptiles, and barring raising the on fast track to get them to grow as fast as possible lifetimes are probably pretty close. I think adult newts normally experience relatively low mortality, compared to, say, frogs. Thus it should be expected they live longer.

I've come across information for Triturus karelinii claiming they mature in 3-5 years in the wild(the norm also for C. ensicauda and some populations of N. viridescens), and live to about 12 years(it is suspected ensicauda are long lived even in the wild, no idea on N. viridescens).

T. karelinii in captivity, on the other hand, can mature in as little as a year. I suspect this would make them die of old age faster. Cynops ensicauda perhaps 2-3 years in captivity until first successful breedings?

I have a few oldish newts in my collection:

T. (=M.) alpestris 20
T. (=M.) alpestris cyreni 12
T. carnifex 12
T. karelinii 10+ (obtained as adults 7 years ago)

All of these seem in good health and come into breeding condition every year, with the exception of the 20yr old alpine, which is a poor feeder (though it has been for some years now), and sporadic breeder.

I'd suggest duration of hibernation or winter cooling as another factor that might influence lifespan in captivity.

I have a male P.waltl which is at least 17 years old. He courts prolifically each year and is at least as active, if not more so than his younger co-inhabitants.