Question: Good quality lighting

Is UV lighting safe for Axies?

There's UV in the sunlight so i can't imagin that it would somehow be harmfull for axies. A tip however is to get a 12 V spotlight instead and remove the cover glass if you have any. This will make the light come down in a very cool way... almost like you where looking under a bridge deck and see the light coming down just on some places, it's really cool i promise plus the light will reflect up on your wall creating reflection of waves which is also very cool. That the spotlight is 12 volts is first of all to reduce electricity cost but mostly because a 12 volt lamp doesn't get hot so you wont have to worry about your water temperature rising.

Vidofner said:

There's UV in the sunlight so i can't imagin that it would somehow be harmfull for axies. A tip however is to get a 12 V spotlight instead and remove the cover glass if you have any. This will make the light come down in a very cool way... almost like you where looking under a bridge deck and see the light coming down just on some places, it's really cool i promise plus the light will reflect up on your wall creating reflection of waves which is also very cool. That the spotlight is 12 volts is first of all to reduce electricity cost but mostly because a 12 volt lamp doesn't get hot so you wont have to worry about your water temperature rising.

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Yes there's UV in sunglight, but in nature, the axolotl lives in deep lakes where they are removed from the harmful effects of UV. Your tank is anything but natural. Your are forcing your axolotl to be at a really shallow depth of 12" of water or less and then the UV really starts to matter. The increase of UV radiation in nature has been linked to increased amphibian deaths so forcing UV radiation on your axolotls at shallow water depth is a bad idea! UV radiation is more energetic than visible radiation and they just dont have the defense against harsh UV radiation like reptiles do. Furthermore they dont need UV like reptiles do to promote bone growth. I posted this abstract of a good paper on another thread which I will reproduce here.

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This is an abstract from Andrew R. Blaustein , John M. Romansic , Joseph M. Kiesecker and Audrey C.Hatch
"Ultraviolet radiation, toxic chemicals and amphibian population declines" Diversity and Distributions, Vol 9, Iss 2, 2003, pp 123-140

"As part of an overall 'biodiversity crisis', many amphibian populations are in decline throughout the world. Numerous factors have contributed to these declines, including habitat destruction, pathogens, increasing ultraviolet (UV) radiation, introduced non-native species and contaminants. In this paper we review the contribution of increasing UV radiation and environmental contamination to the global decline of amphibian populations. Both UV radiation and environmental contaminants can affect amphibians at all life stages. Exposure to UV radiation and to certain contaminants can kill amphibians and induce sublethal affects in embryos, larvae and adults. Moreover, UV radiation and contaminants may interact with one another synergistically. Synergistic interactions of UV radiation with contaminants can enhance the detrimental effects of the contaminant and UV radiation."

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So why would you use a UV bulb (meant for reptiles) when you can use one of the hundreds of perfectly acceptable aquarium bulbs that cut off radiation at a wavelength of 300 nm (UV is less than 300 nm). Flourescent bulbs work best because they conserve energy (less heat) and are adequately bright. T5 bulbs are the most energy efficient. So please, use a bulb with wavelengths in the visible (actinic wavelengths >300 nm) and a Kelvin temperature of 10000K or less (less is better). For Kelvin temperature 6000-9000K is good for plants, and less than 6000K is good for animals. If you have both plants and animals, choose one at 6500K or something, that will be fine.

That's good logic Tran, nice work :happy:.

I was annoyed to discover that I am limited to Jewel aquarium lights (for some reason, though any aquarium light could fit...yes, I know, if logic was a subject, I'd score poorly).

I wanted purple lights and Jewel don't do them. So, I am combatting this by ordering a theatre purple coloured filter (used for theatrical lights, so definately no melting risk) - it should arrive tomorrow. Will put this under the boring white lights, to have a nice tropical, purple jungle tank ,

X

big a little a,
I have a jewel aquarium and any bulb will fit as long as I get the right length...isn't yours the same??

Purple lights! That will be interesting to see. The purple filter should work nicely, plan to post pictures?

big a little a said:

I wanted purple lights and Jewel don't do them. So, I am combatting this by ordering a theatre purple coloured filter (used for theatrical lights, so definately no melting risk) - it should arrive tomorrow. Will put this under the boring white lights, to have a nice tropical, purple jungle tank ,
X

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Well my misstake then. Good thing my spotlight isnt a UV lamp heh

Yes, will definately do a photoshoot of purple-goblin-Petrie . Think it should work well.

I can't seem to find any bulbs that size (it's a really odd specific size, like 59cms or 63cms - can't remember what exactly, but couldn't find any others that size)

x

Axolotls have no need for UV, which is true of most amphibians. A standard aquarium rated fluorescent tube is best in my opinion, however, my axies prefer no additional lighting, getting only ambient room lighting.

Spotlights and incandescent bulbs can cause issues in the long term, since they radiate quite a bit of heat. This can make it hard to maintain the cool water temperatures axolotls depend on to thrive, especially in warm weather.

With regards to the original question: exactly what kind/size of UV bulb are you considering? Although axies may not require it, a UV light of moderate output (through 12" of water) isn't going to hurt them. There is even a small chance that it could be good for them. The data just aren't available to say for sure.

Hi Jen, I'm not sure what you mean about the data not being there about the effects of UV on amphibians. All the papers I've read on this topic seem to concur that UV radiation is not good for amphibians sensitive to UV, like the axolotl.

For example: From [Jablonski N.G., Journal of Herpetology, 32, (1998) 455-457]
" Experimental UV irradiation of amphibian larvae produces a range of developmental defects, including repeated failure of the neural folds to meet entirely to form the neural tube and production of neural folds of unequal size leading to hatchlings with curvature of the spine and tail kinks (Higgins and Sheard, 1926; Licht and Grant, 1997). Most such neural tube defects (NTDs) result from incomplete neurulation, and refer to a wide spectrum of congenital malformations in which separation of the midline vertebral and cranial elements are a common feature."

Also, there are concerns about a decrease in water depth and increasing UV being very bad combination. From [Diamond S.A., Trenham P.C, et al, Ecosystems, 8 (2005) 462-477]
"The potential for an increase in UV-B radiation due to thinning ozone to have a deleterious effect on amphibian populations in high-elevation water bodies has received considerable attention (Corn and Muths 2002; Corn 2003; Merila and others 2000). Recently, Kiesecker and others (2001) sug gested that other types of climate change specif ically, a reduction in precipitation may result in an increase in UV exposure for amphibians by reducing water depth in breeding pools during drought years.

I can find a dozen more papers that cite negative effects of UV on amphibians.

Stephen Diamond and coworkers (cited above) calculated UV doses in wetlands of 6 national parks and found typical fluxes of 3.4-32 W/h/m^2. Take your typical reptile bulb (like ZooMed ReptiSun, 40W) which has 10% UV. Now take your standard 48"x12" 50 gallon aquarium. This is approx. 0.37 square meter. [Diamond S.A., Trenham P.C, et al, Ecosystems, 8 (2005) 462-477]

So 10%*40W = 4W / 0.37 sq. m = 10.8 W/m^2. And this is a continuous supply of radiation, well within solar ranges. In addition, this paper found that the radiation can penetrate the water column at a depth of 8 inches to >40 inches according to location. This is plenty to provide the caudate in captivity with 100% UV at a water depth of 12".

So a reptile bulb on an aquarium has very high potential to cause harm to your amphibian, especially a sensitive one like the axolotl. The only thing that is uncertain is whether the increase in UV rays can be blamed for the declining amphibian populations (with many researchers saying it can). Even members here have had bad experiences with UV lamps on their caudate setups (as can be read in another thread). With some people's personal experience and research to back up the fact that UV doses causes harm to amphibians, I don't know why anyone would use a UV light on their tanks.

Again, there are so many other types of lights available, what good can a UV lamp possibly provide? I know you will say Vitamin D, but then I will ask for research that backs this up because as far as I know an axolotl in the wild does not bask in the sun for 10 minutes to get his vitamin D made from cholesterol like mammals do! They spend their lives in darkness, right?

Maybe I'm missing something crucial from your argument. In that case, please inform me.

I have found LED's or CCFL work well.

Pro's

Low Power
Low Heat
Looks great

Con's
Bit DIY wiring can be hard for n00bz

here is a link to ebay suppliers..
http://shop.ebay.com/items/__aquarium-lighting?_trkparms=72%253A1205%257C66%253A2%257C65%253A12%257C39%253A1&_nkwusc=aquairum&_nkwusc=lighting&_rusck=1&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_pgn=2
Mostly LED, which i insist you go for, unless you have live plants

Jennewt said:

With regards to the original question: exactly what kind/size of UV bulb are you considering? Although axies may not require it, a UV light of moderate output (through 12" of water) isn't going to hurt them. There is even a small chance that it could be good for them. The data just aren't available to say for sure.

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Hi Jennewt!

It was merely an enquiry into which lighting I could use, UV wasn't a preference of mine. I'm acquiring my tank on saturday, and need to get a few things set up for it!

Cheers, Mike

Hello,

I would just to like to come in here that the jury is still out, as far as I'm concerned, on uv requirements for caudates - you might be interested to read the thread here: http://www.caudata.org/forum/showthread.php?t=59626&highlight=lighting for a full discussion.

Basically we don't really know! As long as the animals can get away from it adequately, I would suggest that provision of low-level uv-A and uv-B lighting may be beneficial (and under these circumstances is extremely unlikely to do any harm).

Also, unfortunately or fortunately depending on how you look at it, reptiles and amphibians can be incredibly resistant to poor husbandry conditions, so anecdotal reports of longevity under certain conditions need to be considered cautiously as to whether the animal was fully healthy and "happy". With reptiles certainly there's increasing evidence that properly full-spectrum lighting is beneficial even in species like snakes that it has not traditionally been used in.

Hope this helps,

Bruce.

Hi!

Thanks for all of your input, certainly some things to ponder over.

Cheers, Mike.

I added some thoughts to the UV thread linked above that might be of interest.

If you can't find lighting that meets your needs have you considered using track lighting to supply spot lights? While more costly, some brands now make compact flourescent bulbs that fit into the tracks to replace the halogen bulbs that were available until now. Check your local big box hardware stores.


Ed

Bruce,

I see what you mean about the jury still being out for caudates in general. I should specify that I'm concerned about axolotls, per the question on this subsection of the forum. As far as axolotls are concerned, everything that I've read (been able to find) suggest they do not need UV, like John stated in the thread you posted. Albino axolotls in particular cause concern here. UV might not be detrimental but if a few minutes a day of UV is needed, then providing them with a full UV light (i.e. a reptile light or an actual UV light like UV broadband) will cause more harm than good as others have had experience with. People have had their axolotls in captivity under aquarium lighting with no UV for ages (and some people dont even use lights!) and raise healthy axolotls where the cases of people using UV reptile lights report they have skin problems and even deaths of their axolotls.

Also I think there is a misunderstanding here. I am saying a UV light (i.e. a black light, UV broadband, UV narrowband, Hg discharge) is not a good idea. UV lights have high irradiance at peak UVB wavelengths (the peak of the spectrum is at 290 nm) where a full spectrum light have high irradiance in the visible (peak at around 500 nm) and low in the UV. But a "full spectrum" aquarium light which has very little of UVA should be fine because the flux of UV on those lights is small. But the original question was concerning a UV light, not a full spectrum aquarium light. UV lights should not be used for amphibians because the UV flux is large.

So that is what I mean, dont use reptile or UV lights. As far as whether any UV (at any given flux) is good/bad for caudates, well that depends on the caudate. High flux UV in those commercially available UV lamps would even give humans skin damage.

Hi Ed,

Thanks for directing us to your recent comment on that thread. But all the studies are on lizards right? I'm not sure that applies. As you say studies need to be done on each caudate but for axolotls there is a long precedence of raising them to a ripe old age without lighting.

tran said:

a full spectrum light have high irradiance in the visible (peak at around 500 nm) and low in the UV. But a "full spectrum" aquarium light which has very little of UVA should be fine because the flux of UV on those lights is small. But the original question was concerning a UV light, not a full spectrum aquarium light. UV lights should not be used for amphibians because the UV flux is large.

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When looking at bulbs advertised as full spectrum bulbs, the actual spectrum of the specific bulbs needs to be examined as they can advertise bulbs as full spectrum even if they do not have any UVB in them as long as they produce something in the UVA spectra. (for example, the neodymium incandescent lights are advertised as full spectrum even though they do not produce any UVB.

tran said:

So that is what I mean, dont use reptile or UV lights. As far as whether any UV (at any given flux) is good/bad for caudates, well that depends on the caudate. High flux UV in those commercially available UV lamps would even give humans skin damage.

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I agree it would depend on the caudate as well as the exposure (both time and intensity). When dealing with those bulbs, it should also be kept in mind that distance from the bulb is critical and even a slight increase in distance will result in significant decreases in UV exposure (this website actually has a lot of supported information http://www.uvguide.co.uk/)

tran said:

Thanks for directing us to your recent comment on that thread. But all the studies are on lizards right? I'm not sure that applies. As you say studies need to be done on each caudate but for axolotls there is a long precedence of raising them to a ripe old age without lighting.

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Actually no, not all are on lizards, some of the really important ones were performed on snakes which like caudates have had a long history of being percieved as not needing exposure to UVB as all of thier needs for D3 were met nutritionally. The studies demonstrated that if given access to UVB, the snakes actually would bask to increase thier circulating D3 levels. This is a critical change in the perception of husbandry of snakes as circulating D3 levels may be sufficient for calcium metabolism but insufficient to optimize the rest of the animal's needs such as the immune system as D3 is known to be a potent immune system modulator. If this follows the pattern for other animals, then this could potentially be a reason behind a lot of the "spontaneous" fungal and bacterial infections seen in axolotls.


Ed