Its good to disagree...I have no problem with that!
In the end we are both looking for the same result for caudates, we just disagree over the methods that will lead to a successful supplying of captive bred animals in the marketplace. I am not looking to flame anyone or too personally attack anyone. I am just offering rebuttals to the arguments posed on my post.
I think one should also keep in mind, when extolling the virtues of the free market, that pure economics has also caused the extinction or near extinction of many animals, regardless of fair or unfair pricing.
So what you are saying is the philosophy of economics is what has led or is leading many animals to extinction? I beg to to differ on that blanket statement. While the economics argument leading to extinction has some basis it is not the only piece of the pie that needs to be looked at. I honestly would point to lack of education to be a large piece of the pie. Collectors taking species from the wild are not the sole cause of depletion. What about the habitats being lost to development? This is just as large of an issue for species remaining viable in the wild. Economics is driving this habitat loss. Educate the public about the importance of the endemic species in the plots of land slated for development. How many more golf courses do we need? If the plots contain highly desirable species don't you think the locals should know about them, and be taught sustainable farming practices? Instead of razing the habitat for cattle or whatever show them the alternative abilities to create sustainable habitat farms which they can generate income from. Good examples of this are the Inibico Project - Peru, and the program of sustainable fishing put together by the Dept of Alaskan Fisheries. When shown how sustainable practices can make locals more money in the long run then it has a better chance of success. Not only will they be preserving precious wild enviornments but it is possible to make a profit from the existing land and animals. Economics takes away and can motivate...
Are the members of this board also not part of the economics determining the fair price? I see nothing wrong with people complaining about vendor prices. They are the potential market, afterall.
Maybe we can establish marketing research teams to determine what a fair price is..Just kidding....
Just seems uncouth to being commenting on prices in for sale ads. I just wouldn't do it. If I had an issue with a price I would either PM or email the vendor, or I would simply not purchase the species. If no one buys the animals at the posted price then the vendor will either reduce the price or hold onto the animal. So your suggesting collusion to keep the prices low? If members of this board do not like the price they can just not purchase the animals. The lack of sales should be a big enough indicator for the seller. I just don't understand why what anyone charges is fodder for public criticism. That would be like me asking you to publish your job title and salary, oh and while we are at it publish your tax return so we can tell you if you make too much money. And if you want a raise from your boss maybe we can can give you ten reasons why you do not deserve a raise....Not really fair is it.
I recently bought caudates from someone on this board. Having dealt with this person before I know the quality of animal they have. This was a species I really wanted. I did not question the price I was quoted for these CB animals. I gladly paid the quoted price. I did not try to negotiate or beat the person up for a better deal. Having bred CB clownfish, wild type bettas, and other freshwater fish I know all the work that goes into it even for a simple hobbyist. While the live food costs, utilities, other misc supplies, and starter stock are relatively fixed costs. What about the hours nuturing the animals the individual has spent on raising the caudates from eggs to shippable juvies, or adulthood? I would argue that is a variable cost. What you determine your time being worth may not be what the seller being critcised may consider his being valued at. I know the endless hours spent on trying to breed captive bred animals for relatively small bucks. In the end if I made a few bucks it was gravy. So when I see criticism of sellers on price in threads outside of a vendor review forum it really makes me uneasy. Should every seller (the majority on the board whom are just hobbyists) be obligated to sell any animals they have bred at a profit loss? Maybe these sellers seeing the inability to make a small profit should just let nature take its course in the tank. The adults can eat the eggs they find and the few animals that actually make it from egg to juvie can just be kept by the person who bred them. I am willing to bet the WC numbers will rise....The posts criticising the pricing seem to out number the posts containing positive/negative feedback on sellers based on other criteria. Lets spend more time on why a breeder is good or bad based on actual animals received, communication between parties, etc. I would rather know who are the good/bad sellers based on other criteria besides price. Just because someone offers the same product cheaper than someone else doesn't mean you are getting a better price at a cheaper price. Sometimes you get what you pay for. Personally I would rather spend more for a caudate from an established responsible breeder with a track record than from someone who has no feedback and has the lowest price. Maybe I am in the minority but that is just my opinion.
I would argue that for at least some endangered species of caudates, only CITES and jail time will achieve this in sufficient time. And serious breeders always want new bloodlines...
This may seem shocking that I am a hardcore law and order guy from the great State of Massachusetts. I don't care if you are illegally trafficking animals, or committing another grievous crime, you should be punished. Break the law and you should do the time no matter what the crime is. I totally agree if you are caught trafficking illegally obtained animals you should do the time or pay the fine. There is no arguing this point. Questioning the legality of animals based on a price that is seemingly objectionable seems like sour apples.
Serious breeders do want new bloodlines but what percentage of legal WC animals is going to serious breeders or straight to the public? I would argue that if a serious breeder has these animals and is proprogating them for sale they are going to allievate some of the pressure of the wild caught animals being sold to Joe Public. How many of the animals sold to Joe Public make it past 6 months, a year, or multiple years in captivity, or are even breed successfully? I would venture to say that most of the WC specimens sold to Joe Public are doomed and their loss from the wild is a double whammy in the loss of the current animal and unknown countless successful generations. So if a breeder obtains legal animals at least they have a chance. A serious breeder has the knowledge and established procedures which give them a better chance of success of breeding animals than some person who has no experience but just wants one of those cute newts.
People sell wild caught animals only because there is profit in doing so. Offering CB at prices equal to or greater than wild caught does not diminish this profit. Only when the price plummets and it's no longer profitable to poach does the poaching stop.
Once again educate the locals where the poaching is occurring. If they are taught sustainable farming practices it will become a win/win. Educate the buying public that CB is better than WC. If the CB prices plummet what hobbyist is going to want to breed animals that they will not even break even on. Wild caught will continue to be poached because as you said yourself there is the ability to turn a profit. It is a lot cheaper to poach and it will always be cheaper to poach than to breed. Overhead and carrying costs for poaching will always be lower. Captive bred animals need to be talked up. I can give you five reasons why CB are a better bet than WC specimens, but if I am forced to sell any I have for less than it costs to breed them then why would anyone do it? I have a household budget as well as many others. Should I feed my kids less, or buy them clothes less frequently, or just exit from the hobby altogether? If any hobbyist thinks they are going to get rich breeding caudates they are in for a serious reality check. I can't tell you how many people I have seen lose their shirts on breeding programs for wild caught bettas, and various marine fish.
This is a mind-boggling statement to me, personally. Suffice to say, in the course of my life, I have met countless people with "uber cash" they are willing to spend on herps. It's been my experience that this in no way offers any indication of their level of education or understanding on anything regarding the environment, endangered species, ecology, etc.
Goes back to my education argument. Put it out there why it is important to have a CB animal.
I think you'd be surprised, but let's just say it's true: if they haven't been offered it's not because someone out there wouldn't LOVE to collect a bunch and sell them online for profit if it were possible. If they haven't hit a pet store, and I include the internet as a pet store, then they just haven't been obtainable yet for one reason or another OR it's not profitable.[/QUOTE]
I don't have my head buried in the sand. I have visited KS out of curiousity and seen questionable animals for sale. I wouldn't buy anything I considered questionable. But once again I choose to buy from vendors/hobbyists I consider responsible who offer CB animals. Personally I would not buy WC because my lack of expertise of the animals may doomed them to an early death. If you know of a mom and pop LFS/herp shop stocking kaiseri, or the alike you have to let me know.
Anyways just my $0.02.