Caudata.org: Newts and Salamanders Portal

Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
Did you know that registered users see fewer ads? Register today!

Price for ss gigliolii

nkatko

New member
Joined
Feb 1, 2009
Messages
17
Reaction score
0
Location
Lexington, KY
What would be considered a fair price to pay for a 1-2 year old high yellow ss gigliolii? I saw one on-line for $189
 

John

Founder
Staff member
Joined
Feb 6, 2001
Messages
8,167
Reaction score
424
Location
USA
It's really personal preference. They are rarely available in the US so they tend to go for a lot - some people take it to extremes. Granted $189 is probably lower than the upper end but it is still steep in my opinion. I'm sure it will sell though - the expensive ones seem to sell so if you do want it I wouldn't dally.
 
Last edited:

marco

New member
Joined
May 23, 2007
Messages
144
Reaction score
1
Location
festering away in stockport (UK)
That's disgustingly high in price, if people are charging that much for CB animals then theres no wonder people prefer their own native salamanders.

The most I have ever paid for a Gigliolli is £80.00 (and that was for an adult female), not sure what next works out to in US dollar's but it will probably be around $90-95.00 .
 

John

Founder
Staff member
Joined
Feb 6, 2001
Messages
8,167
Reaction score
424
Location
USA
That's disgustingly high in price, if people are charging that much for CB animals then theres no wonder people prefer their own native salamanders.

The most I have ever paid for a Gigliolli is £80.00 (and that was for an adult female), not sure what next works out to in US dollar's but it will probably be around $90-95.00 .
While I agree with you in principle, this is the USA and British pricing of animals does not apply - different market and different availability. Mind you, if memory serves, I saw 5 juveniles of a similar age sold for $900 (?) recently, including shipping. I'm surprised there aren't a bunch of people ravaging the Italian countryside for prices like that. It makes Neurergus kaiseri seem cheap.
 
Last edited:

merk199

New member
Joined
Mar 13, 2009
Messages
364
Reaction score
15
Location
Pepperell MA
Pure economics gives us the answer to what is a fair price for an animal. It is fair as long as a consumer is willing to meet the agreed on price for the animal plain and simple. I am always curious when someone's price becomes an issue on this board. I never know which way the public opinion will sway. When I see someone get beat on a price on this board it makes me a little uncomfortable. In the grand scheme of things s s gigliolii and kaseri at $150 a pop is a drop in the bucket especially when you look at dendros, and the craziness of their pricing. A CB dendro proven pair can easily fetch $200-$300a pair and can be relatively common dendro such as an azeurus pair. Pumillos prices are through the roof.

I am starting to think the only way to save the caudates from being plucked from the wild is to start making breeding on CB's more price attractive. If the base price was more attractive for selling captive bred animals the breeders would enter the market eventually swamping the market and driving the WC specimens out. Why would someone be interested in raising CB orientalis other than the pure thrill of it. If you are willing to spend the "uber" cash on the kaseri or s s gigiolii you already know the inherent damage WC specimens can have on the enviornment and the survivabilty of a species in the wild. I am am willing to guess some of the more "unique" caudates have never hit a pet store ever. At $8-$10 a pop that is definitely not going to attract breeders...Anyways just my $0.02.
 
Last edited:

John

Founder
Staff member
Joined
Feb 6, 2001
Messages
8,167
Reaction score
424
Location
USA
You make some interesting points Rick and it goes back to my original point to nkatko - it's personal preference. If you want something and are willing to pay for it then more power to you.
 
Last edited:

nate

Member
Joined
Feb 6, 2001
Messages
846
Reaction score
4
Location
Wichita, KS
I tried so hard to refrain from responding to these points that have been hashed out here on the forums repeatedly, but I have no discipline I guess...

Pure economics gives us the answer to what is a fair price for an animal.

I think one should also keep in mind, when extolling the virtues of the free market, that pure economics has also caused the extinction or near extinction of many animals, regardless of fair or unfair pricing.

When I see someone get beat on a price on this board it makes me a little uncomfortable.

Are the members of this board also not part of the economics determining the fair price? I see nothing wrong with people complaining about vendor prices. They are the potential market, afterall.

I am starting to think the only way to save the caudates from being plucked from the wild is to start making breeding on CB's more price attractive. If the base price was more attractive for selling captive bred animals the breeders would enter the market eventually swamping the market and driving the WC specimens out.

I would argue that for at least some endangered species of caudates, only CITES and jail time will achieve this in sufficient time. And serious breeders always want new bloodlines...

People sell wild caught animals only because there is profit in doing so. Offering CB at prices equal to or greater than wild caught does not diminish this profit. Only when the price plummets and it's no longer profitable to poach does the poaching stop.

If you are willing to spend the "uber" cash on the kaseri or s s gigiolii you already know the inherent damage WC specimens can have on the enviornment and the survivabilty of a species in the wild.

This is a mind-boggling statement to me, personally. Suffice to say, in the course of my life, I have met countless people with "uber cash" they are willing to spend on herps. It's been my experience that this in no way offers any indication of their level of education or understanding on anything regarding the environment, endangered species, ecology, etc.

I am am willing to guess some of the more "unique" caudates have never hit a pet store ever.

I think you'd be surprised, but let's just say it's true: if they haven't been offered it's not because someone out there wouldn't LOVE to collect a bunch and sell them online for profit if it were possible. If they haven't hit a pet store, and I include the internet as a pet store, then they just haven't been obtainable yet for one reason or another OR it's not profitable.
 

merk199

New member
Joined
Mar 13, 2009
Messages
364
Reaction score
15
Location
Pepperell MA
Its good to disagree...I have no problem with that!:D In the end we are both looking for the same result for caudates, we just disagree over the methods that will lead to a successful supplying of captive bred animals in the marketplace. I am not looking to flame anyone or too personally attack anyone. I am just offering rebuttals to the arguments posed on my post.

I think one should also keep in mind, when extolling the virtues of the free market, that pure economics has also caused the extinction or near extinction of many animals, regardless of fair or unfair pricing.

So what you are saying is the philosophy of economics is what has led or is leading many animals to extinction? I beg to to differ on that blanket statement. While the economics argument leading to extinction has some basis it is not the only piece of the pie that needs to be looked at. I honestly would point to lack of education to be a large piece of the pie. Collectors taking species from the wild are not the sole cause of depletion. What about the habitats being lost to development? This is just as large of an issue for species remaining viable in the wild. Economics is driving this habitat loss. Educate the public about the importance of the endemic species in the plots of land slated for development. How many more golf courses do we need? If the plots contain highly desirable species don't you think the locals should know about them, and be taught sustainable farming practices? Instead of razing the habitat for cattle or whatever show them the alternative abilities to create sustainable habitat farms which they can generate income from. Good examples of this are the Inibico Project - Peru, and the program of sustainable fishing put together by the Dept of Alaskan Fisheries. When shown how sustainable practices can make locals more money in the long run then it has a better chance of success. Not only will they be preserving precious wild enviornments but it is possible to make a profit from the existing land and animals. Economics takes away and can motivate...


Are the members of this board also not part of the economics determining the fair price? I see nothing wrong with people complaining about vendor prices. They are the potential market, afterall.

Maybe we can establish marketing research teams to determine what a fair price is..Just kidding....
Just seems uncouth to being commenting on prices in for sale ads. I just wouldn't do it. If I had an issue with a price I would either PM or email the vendor, or I would simply not purchase the species. If no one buys the animals at the posted price then the vendor will either reduce the price or hold onto the animal. So your suggesting collusion to keep the prices low? If members of this board do not like the price they can just not purchase the animals. The lack of sales should be a big enough indicator for the seller. I just don't understand why what anyone charges is fodder for public criticism. That would be like me asking you to publish your job title and salary, oh and while we are at it publish your tax return so we can tell you if you make too much money. And if you want a raise from your boss maybe we can can give you ten reasons why you do not deserve a raise....Not really fair is it.
I recently bought caudates from someone on this board. Having dealt with this person before I know the quality of animal they have. This was a species I really wanted. I did not question the price I was quoted for these CB animals. I gladly paid the quoted price. I did not try to negotiate or beat the person up for a better deal. Having bred CB clownfish, wild type bettas, and other freshwater fish I know all the work that goes into it even for a simple hobbyist. While the live food costs, utilities, other misc supplies, and starter stock are relatively fixed costs. What about the hours nuturing the animals the individual has spent on raising the caudates from eggs to shippable juvies, or adulthood? I would argue that is a variable cost. What you determine your time being worth may not be what the seller being critcised may consider his being valued at. I know the endless hours spent on trying to breed captive bred animals for relatively small bucks. In the end if I made a few bucks it was gravy. So when I see criticism of sellers on price in threads outside of a vendor review forum it really makes me uneasy. Should every seller (the majority on the board whom are just hobbyists) be obligated to sell any animals they have bred at a profit loss? Maybe these sellers seeing the inability to make a small profit should just let nature take its course in the tank. The adults can eat the eggs they find and the few animals that actually make it from egg to juvie can just be kept by the person who bred them. I am willing to bet the WC numbers will rise....The posts criticising the pricing seem to out number the posts containing positive/negative feedback on sellers based on other criteria. Lets spend more time on why a breeder is good or bad based on actual animals received, communication between parties, etc. I would rather know who are the good/bad sellers based on other criteria besides price. Just because someone offers the same product cheaper than someone else doesn't mean you are getting a better price at a cheaper price. Sometimes you get what you pay for. Personally I would rather spend more for a caudate from an established responsible breeder with a track record than from someone who has no feedback and has the lowest price. Maybe I am in the minority but that is just my opinion.

I would argue that for at least some endangered species of caudates, only CITES and jail time will achieve this in sufficient time. And serious breeders always want new bloodlines...

This may seem shocking that I am a hardcore law and order guy from the great State of Massachusetts. I don't care if you are illegally trafficking animals, or committing another grievous crime, you should be punished. Break the law and you should do the time no matter what the crime is. I totally agree if you are caught trafficking illegally obtained animals you should do the time or pay the fine. There is no arguing this point. Questioning the legality of animals based on a price that is seemingly objectionable seems like sour apples.
Serious breeders do want new bloodlines but what percentage of legal WC animals is going to serious breeders or straight to the public? I would argue that if a serious breeder has these animals and is proprogating them for sale they are going to allievate some of the pressure of the wild caught animals being sold to Joe Public. How many of the animals sold to Joe Public make it past 6 months, a year, or multiple years in captivity, or are even breed successfully? I would venture to say that most of the WC specimens sold to Joe Public are doomed and their loss from the wild is a double whammy in the loss of the current animal and unknown countless successful generations. So if a breeder obtains legal animals at least they have a chance. A serious breeder has the knowledge and established procedures which give them a better chance of success of breeding animals than some person who has no experience but just wants one of those cute newts.


People sell wild caught animals only because there is profit in doing so. Offering CB at prices equal to or greater than wild caught does not diminish this profit. Only when the price plummets and it's no longer profitable to poach does the poaching stop.

Once again educate the locals where the poaching is occurring. If they are taught sustainable farming practices it will become a win/win. Educate the buying public that CB is better than WC. If the CB prices plummet what hobbyist is going to want to breed animals that they will not even break even on. Wild caught will continue to be poached because as you said yourself there is the ability to turn a profit. It is a lot cheaper to poach and it will always be cheaper to poach than to breed. Overhead and carrying costs for poaching will always be lower. Captive bred animals need to be talked up. I can give you five reasons why CB are a better bet than WC specimens, but if I am forced to sell any I have for less than it costs to breed them then why would anyone do it? I have a household budget as well as many others. Should I feed my kids less, or buy them clothes less frequently, or just exit from the hobby altogether? If any hobbyist thinks they are going to get rich breeding caudates they are in for a serious reality check. I can't tell you how many people I have seen lose their shirts on breeding programs for wild caught bettas, and various marine fish.


This is a mind-boggling statement to me, personally. Suffice to say, in the course of my life, I have met countless people with "uber cash" they are willing to spend on herps. It's been my experience that this in no way offers any indication of their level of education or understanding on anything regarding the environment, endangered species, ecology, etc.

Goes back to my education argument. Put it out there why it is important to have a CB animal.


I think you'd be surprised, but let's just say it's true: if they haven't been offered it's not because someone out there wouldn't LOVE to collect a bunch and sell them online for profit if it were possible. If they haven't hit a pet store, and I include the internet as a pet store, then they just haven't been obtainable yet for one reason or another OR it's not profitable.[/QUOTE]

I don't have my head buried in the sand. I have visited KS out of curiousity and seen questionable animals for sale. I wouldn't buy anything I considered questionable. But once again I choose to buy from vendors/hobbyists I consider responsible who offer CB animals. Personally I would not buy WC because my lack of expertise of the animals may doomed them to an early death. If you know of a mom and pop LFS/herp shop stocking kaiseri, or the alike you have to let me know.


Anyways just my $0.02.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Jan

nate

Member
Joined
Feb 6, 2001
Messages
846
Reaction score
4
Location
Wichita, KS
I am not looking to flame anyone or too personally attack anyone. I am just offering rebuttals to the arguments posed on my post.

Oh, I realize. ;) This is just a recurring clash of ideals and philosophies as to the purpose of hobby and the role hobbyists play in the disappearance of species. And the internet is so cold and rude...it'd be much different if you and I had this discussion in person. I try to give people the benefit of the doubt in these things.

That would be like me asking you to publish your job title and salary, oh and while we are at it publish your tax return so we can tell you if you make too much money. And if you want a raise from your boss maybe we can can give you ten reasons why you do not deserve a raise....Not really fair is it.

C'mon now, it's nothing like that. What it is like, is criticizing Exxon for prices at the pump or a restaurant for a 10$ burger or small portions for the cost, or any other retailer for perceived price gouging, real or imagined. And BTW, I'm a public employee and my title and salary are indeed public record for those interested. I don't lose any sleep...

If the CB prices plummet what hobbyist is going to want to breed animals that they will not even break even on.

Answer: the true hobbyists. The people not in it for money. You mention that no one will want to raise something like orientalis, because there's no profit. well, there are always plenty of orientalis around. Why? The reason is, people do it because it's fun and interesting to them. It's rewarding. They like to do it. It's their hobby.

Some people acquire newts and breed them for other reasons you mention...I do not think of them as hobbyists, personally.

Once again educate the locals where the poaching is occurring.

Once again, you pass the buck. Instead of taking any blame for the increased poaching of lucrative species by supporting/encouraging their high prices, it's those uneducated collectors in remote parts of the world that must be reformed.

I can give you five reasons why CB are a better bet than WC specimens, but if I am forced to sell any I have for less than it costs to breed them then why would anyone do it? I have a household budget as well as many others. Should I feed my kids less, or buy them clothes less frequently, or just exit from the hobby altogether?

You seem to be confusing the hobby of keeping newts with the business of selling newts. They are different things. If your hobby causes you to feed your kids less, then perhaps newts are not the best idea. Maybe a 2nd job. Exit from the hobby.
 

Azhael

Site Contributor
Joined
May 7, 2007
Messages
6,645
Reaction score
103
Location
Burgos
I think Nate nailed it with the distinction between the hobby of keeping newts and the businness of selling newts.
Both sides share the hobby, and we need each other, but the differences in mentality between the two groups are so big that comfrontation is inevitable.

When you compare the points of view, it´s astonishing we are even talking about the same things. A seller uses the animals as objects, assigning higher values to rare or visually atractive species/individuals. A true hobbyists doesn´t care...each animal is just as valuable as the other, because what drives their interest is a pasion for the animals, not for the prospect of profit.


I relate to what Nate said about C.orientalis. I breed them and i have to admit it consumes some time and effort(specially if you insists on hand-feeding them individually ¬¬). It´s not one of the easiest species to raise. However....i don´t sell them, i give them away. Not trying to be presumptuous here, just saying that the fact that i make no profit whatsoever(in fact i loose money) means nothing to me, it really doesn´t....i just do it because i frikin love these animals xD
See how opossed my point of view is when compared to a seller´s.

I have a very hard time trying to put myself in the place of a collector/seller...but one thing i´m sure of...they take "advantage" of us (in the sense that they make money from us), and we sure as hell have the right to take "advantage" of them by means of demanding fair prices, quality animals and a good service.
 

freves

Active member
Joined
Dec 8, 2003
Messages
1,063
Reaction score
23
Location
Virginia
I would be happy as a clam if my hobby would occasionally cover a credit card payment instead of adding to it...
Chip
 

marco

New member
Joined
May 23, 2007
Messages
144
Reaction score
1
Location
festering away in stockport (UK)
theres no justification to charging xxxx amount of money for an animal that is established within the captive breeding programs of the US and europe.

What ever people charge is out of pure greed when we talk of three figure numbers. costs, market and economy aside, anything over £90 (or the dollar equivalant) is just ridiculous. I appreciate that within the US people have a passion for Salamandra, but these prices are horrific. Here in england Salamandra can be pricey but not to those extremes. And as for the importation and europe being close to us, there's not a great deal of people willing to travel across england and down the channel into france and beyond to buy cheap Salamandra.

In my opinion this is even worse than the N.Kaseri situation.

*and the term High yellow is worrying too. are people trying to brand localities like the leopard gecko morph trend?
 

Azhael

Site Contributor
Joined
May 7, 2007
Messages
6,645
Reaction score
103
Location
Burgos
Of course they are...
Salamandra salamandra is being selectively bred by some breeders to create visually atractive animals(as if there is any ugly Salamandra). I think subespecies are being mixed too for that purpose...
I personally find it appauling...why can´t people just enjoy nature as it is...why is it always about morphs and money.....agh..makes me sick....
 

marco

New member
Joined
May 23, 2007
Messages
144
Reaction score
1
Location
festering away in stockport (UK)
I dont know why i botherd asking....

Heres to hoping that this morph fad never reaches england.

If people actually took the time to research a subspecies, just one subspecies, they would realise how diverse a single subspecies can be in terms of locality variation, to create morphs out of Salamandra would be like trying to win the lottery, there is that many different numbers that it will never happen. Except that all the pure lines will get jumbled up.
 

tdimler

Member
Joined
May 7, 2007
Messages
172
Reaction score
9
Location
West Texas
The gigliolii that sold recently were mine and I sold 5 three year old animals for $900. They were animals that I acquired as CB babies in 2006 and had intentions of never selling. I simply have decided to cut back on a few things and offered them up. I spent about $400 on the group at them time and they were legally imported. I have three years of care and feeding in them. Additionally, I covered the cost of shipping ($80) plus drove a three hour round trip to the airport to drop them off ($30 in fuel.) If this looks like a big money making proposition I think someone needs to check their math. How do you price animals that simply aren't available in the U.S? To my knowledge, these are the first legitimate CB gigliolii offered in at least 4 years and I think they are worth a good bit more than I sold them for.

Sure, they're a bit cheaper in Europe, but you can't compare apples to oranges. Prices for quality CB stock over there aren't as cheap as one might think, and there is immense cost and hassle to legally import animals here. Last summer I spent about $600 in air cargo, inspection fees and licensing, etc. just to get a single shipment of Salamandra over for my personal collection plus drove a 10 hour round trip to the airport to pick them up.

One thing about valuable animals....they usually get taken care of. If Salamandra were $5 each there would be thousands of WC S. s. s. sitting in pet shops around the country waiting to die. If you or I pay $100 each for some freshly morphed caudates you better know they are going to get the best care. I also agree with the statement that the inherent value of an animals ramps up the captive breeding efforts.

If I looked at the money I have spent in the past on herps versus the money I make from a few annual sales, I would be so far in the red that it's not even funny. I keep Salamandra because I love them, but if I can partially fund new acquisitions and upkeep costs with the sale of CB animals I look at that as a good thing.

It is a free market, if you have goods or services to offer that no-one else does they will always bring a premium. The notion that someone is being "taken advantage of" for a luxury/hobby item is ridiculous. Nobody NEEDS to buy any caudates so you buy what you can afford. You may get taken advantage at the gas pump, the grocery store, or with health care costs, but certainly not in your hobbies.

If anyone wants to spend the time building relationships and making trustworthy contacts in Europe, wait for CB animals to become available, go through the paperwork with USFWS for import/export, spend the high cost for air cargo, assume HUGE financial risk dealing with live animals which could potentially die before they get in your hands, and then get them here safely and sell them for $30 each, I'll save the hassle and risk, let you take the loss, and buy them from you ;-)
 

tdimler

Member
Joined
May 7, 2007
Messages
172
Reaction score
9
Location
West Texas
I think one should also keep in mind, when extolling the virtues of the free market, that pure economics has also caused the extinction or near extinction of many animals, regardless of fair or unfair pricing.

Nate, I too am totally against commercial collection almost all instances. It is bad for the hobby in many ways. However, I hardly ever hear a herpetologist say that a population has suffered from commercial collection. I'd be interested to see several citations in the literature where herps have been collected to the point of near extinction, particularly caudates. For the most part, commercial collectors collect on roadways. Roads are such a narrow transect through un-collectable land that there is simply no way road collecting can impact a population.
 

tdimler

Member
Joined
May 7, 2007
Messages
172
Reaction score
9
Location
West Texas
theres no justification to charging xxxx amount of money for an animal that is established within the captive breeding programs of the US and europe.

What ever people charge is out of pure greed when we talk of three figure numbers. costs, market and economy aside, anything over £90 (or the dollar equivalant) is just ridiculous. I appreciate that within the US people have a passion for Salamandra, but these prices are horrific. Here in england Salamandra can be pricey but not to those extremes. And as for the importation and europe being close to us, there's not a great deal of people willing to travel across england and down the channel into france and beyond to buy cheap Salamandra.

In my opinion this is even worse than the N.Kaseri situation.

*and the term High yellow is worrying too. are people trying to brand localities like the leopard gecko morph trend?

Salamandra are not even close to established here in the USA. I can't even count on one hand the number of people here really enthusiastic about Salamandra. Citing gigliolii as an example....I don't think there have ever been any animals bred on U.S. soil

Your threshold of 90 pounds is about $150. Which is about what I sold each gigliolii for less my shipping expense.
 

nate

Member
Joined
Feb 6, 2001
Messages
846
Reaction score
4
Location
Wichita, KS
Nate, I too am totally against commercial collection almost all instances. It is bad for the hobby in many ways. However, I hardly ever hear a herpetologist say that a population has suffered from commercial collection. I'd be interested to see several citations in the literature where herps have been collected to the point of near extinction, particularly caudates. For the most part, commercial collectors collect on roadways. Roads are such a narrow transect through un-collectable land that there is simply no way road collecting can impact a population.

Wow, seriously? I find that stunning. I don't have access to the literature really anymore, now that I'm no longer at a university, but just a simple google search should be more than enough to convince you. I'll get to a brief list in a sec...but your point about caudates is slightly misleading in that they're still relatively new and obscure to the other herps in terms of the pet trade. But they're making headway. N. kaiseri is the biggest example at this point. I see several Asian species soon to foolow as well.

Mozafar Sharifi, Theodore Papenfuss, Nasrullah Rastegar-Pouyani, Steven Anderson, Sergius Kuzmin 2008. Neurergus kaiseri. In: IUCN 2009. IUCN Red List of Threatened Species. Version 2009.1. <www.iucnredlist.org>.


But for other stuff, it's difficult to even know where to begin, it's so extensive, and I just don't have the time these days to really track down stuff for you, but here's a quick sample of herps:

http://www.scientificamerican.com/b...llegal-pet-trade-devastating-popul-2009-05-19

http://www.thedailygreen.com/environmental-news/latest/madagascar-turtles-tortoises-47020708

http://news.bio-medicine.org/biolog...-turtle-toward-extinction--new-report-8306-1/

http://chronicle.com/free/v52/i46/46a01201.htm

And this totally overlooks commercial collection for food and other products, it's just pet trade.

And to be clear, I'm not necessarily against commercial collecting. There are plenty of species that can handle sustained, regulated harvest each year for the pet trade. What I'm against is largely hobbyist/breeder motivated inflation of prices for rarer animals already threatened by extinction. If the animals don't already have it bad enough with habitat loss or perhaps they had a tiny distribution to begin with, putting such high prices on them makes them a glaring target. To me, a person knowing about the plight of a rare herp, but still offering their captive bred at prices that encourage continued poaching, is indefensible and inexcusable.

Additionally, the number of people keeping herps as traditional pets as well as the international market for herp collecting has exploded in the last 20-30 years. It's only recently become so large. We're on the cusp now. We will see start seeing a wave commercial collecting driven herp extirpations in the very near future, much like what we've already seen in fish, mammals, and birds.
 
General chit-chat
Help Users
  • No one is chatting at the moment.
    There are no messages in the chat. Be the first one to say Hi!
    Top