plant substrate

Hi guys!! I was reading about aquascaping (thanks thanks thanks Frankie!) and was thinking
about plant substrate. What kind of toxic compounds am I looking for to avoid?

My axies are doing great, but my java fern isnt. It is getting dark spots and a yellowish colour in
one leaf. I was thinking it could be due the water Im using. I use bottled watter added with
HFR solution (my tap water has 8.5 Ph), and I was thinking htere might be some salts naturally found in tap water that i could be skipping.

I found azoo plant grower bed in my town, but dont know if this is harmless. Any clue?

I really want to keep healthy my java fern, the little girls love it!!

I can find flourish too, I dont know what could be best.

Thanks in advance!!!

Hi Celeste,

Have a look through this guide.

http://www.caudata.org/axolotl-sanctuary/Aquascape.shtml

Cheers

I've got two points here... first, a disagreement with the previously posted article that I don't want to mislead any potential planted tank folks out there. Second, java-fern specific advice. On to my rant!

I don't agree with some of what is said in that article. Don't get me wrong, there's a lot of good advice in there but some of it is misleading.

No substrate deeper than 2cm? For those of us not in the metric system that's less than an inch. In planted tank circles, it's typically recommended to have a substrate depth of 2-3 inches. (5-7.5 centimeters). Now, anaerobic bacteria CAN kill creatures. A lot of stuff in our tanks CAN. If you're talking about planting your tank, and doing it with a (expensive) plant-specific substrate, I would hope you're planting more than just one java fern.

In fact, deep sand/substrate beds can aid in reducing nitrate levels in your water BECAUSE of anaerobic bacteria. The issue comes when a deep sand bed is overrun with the anaerobic bacteria and gets suddenly stirred up. The roots on your plants will permeate the areas with anaerobic bacteria and reduce the amount of "food" that it has. This keeps it in check, so to speak.

So yes - if you don't have plants a shallow substrate bed or not substrate at all is the way to go. If you're heavily planting and not over-feeding there's no reason to have only 2cm of depth. If you try planting a 2cm substrate bed, I'm sure you'll find plants with any sort of large root system difficult if not impossible to keep in the ground.

My rant is now over.

For java fern specifically, none of that matters. Java fern has a rhizome that you shouldn't plant under anything. If you bury your rhizome, you'll kill the plant. I suggest tying java ferns to pieces of porous driftwood so when the rhizome roots it sticks to the wood. That makes it easy to move your plants around and it also looks great. The "roots" that come off of the rhizome don't really absorb many nutrients anyway, they merely anchor the plant somewhere. Java ferns are water column feeders, so any nutrient deficiency yours may have is either a lack of nutrients or the wrong spectrum of light. Do you have a specific plant spectrum in there? 6700k to 10000k works best for freshwater plants in my experience.

Flourish "excel" is the easiest and most comprehensive seachem product to use for plants in my opinion. If you can find that, it'd be a good buy.

Celeste said:

What kind of toxic compounds am I looking for to avoid?

Click to expand...

Hey Celeste, It's not so much about potential toxic compounds, but more about impaction risks that you should take care when choosing a plant substrate- for e.g. something like Flourite RED from Seachem would be no use at all as it's sharp and stone-like in its consitency and could cause great harm to axies if ingested.

I've not come across a substrate that DOES have anything toxic in it, but mentioned it only because it's something to watch out for when you put ANYTHING new into a tank and I haven't personally investigated the chemical make-up of all of the available plant substrates.
I can't imagine that you'd come across a plant substrate that is toxic, and most of them claim to assist in stabilising water conditions - the one I use, for example, claims to stabilise PH to around 7, and it appears to work quite effectively.

Hi forrestcook,

I appreciate you sharing your thoughts on the matter. In the article, it was suggested in general that substrate (sand or plant substrate) not be deeper than an inch so as to avoid gas pockets. Anaerobic gas pockets can cause problems with water chemistry and the well being of axies.The crux of the matter is that the foremost important inhabitants of the tank are the axies. Plants are really secondary. The article aims to place the priority in safeguarding the axies.

There was a discussion on choosing the right type of aquatic plants for the tank and there were many other plant types suggested such as anubias that can be affixed to a rock or driftwood as well and would not require deep substrate to root.

The best way to reduce nitrates in the tank are regular water testing and water changes. Live plants can help prevent spikes and fluctuations. Nitrates are the end product of the cycling process. Ammonia -> nitrites -> nitrates.

Cheers.
---

forrestcook said:

No substrate deeper than 2cm? For those of us not in the metric system that's less than an inch. In planted tank circles, it's typically recommended to have a substrate depth of 2-3 inches. (5-7.5 centimeters). Now, anaerobic bacteria CAN kill creatures. A lot of stuff in our tanks CAN. If you're talking about planting your tank, and doing it with a (expensive) plant-specific substrate, I would hope you're planting more than just one java fern.

In fact, deep sand/substrate beds can aid in reducing nitrate levels in your water BECAUSE of anaerobic bacteria. The issue comes when a deep sand bed is overrun with the anaerobic bacteria and gets suddenly stirred up. The roots on your plants will permeate the areas with anaerobic bacteria and reduce the amount of "food" that it has. This keeps it in check, so to speak.

So yes - if you don't have plants a shallow substrate bed or not substrate at all is the way to go. If you're heavily planting and not over-feeding there's no reason to have only 2cm of depth. If you try planting a 2cm substrate bed, I'm sure you'll find plants with any sort of large root system difficult if not impossible to keep in the ground.

Click to expand...

Personally, my issue with plant substrates and axolotls is iron. (Well that and I have spent the last few weeks compiling everything you never needed to know about substrates for a number of writing projects. This research has included direct conversation with ten and counting substrate companies...) As a paranoid type hobbyists with quite a few years of experimentation with tank design, I generally leave out the fancy plant substrates anymore.

Both most commonly sold forms of this product (Known as generally laterite and flourite under numerous brand names) contain high amounts of iron. High amounts of ANY metal can be potentially detrimental to the health of amphibians in a closed environment like an aquarium.

There is quite a bit of argument both for and against these, especially laterite, with their use for plants. The argument is based on the release of plant friendly nutrients versus the insolubility of both compounds in water. In the case of their use with axolotls, it should be kept in mind that both of these substrates are designed with warm water tropical fresh water aquaria in mind (water temp 72F or higher, bright lighting and contain nutrients targeted for plants that prefer these conditions. The effectiveness of these substrates on plant growth is arguable, based on both professional research and anecdotal evidence from many, many hobbyists. This leads us to the number one rule of vivaria design: When in doubt, leave it out. And in the case of most plant substrates and axolotls there is quite a bit of doubt.

In cold water aquaria, such as used by axolotl and goldfish hobbyists, the effects of plant substrates are generally more trouble than they are worth. The most common problem that develops is algae blooms resulting severe crashes in carbonate hardness and total dissolved oxygen. These two issues quickly cascade into a very unhealthy axolotl environment. Discussion with manufacturers of these products for the most part stated that their products were not designed for use in axolotl water parameters.

As Frank and Dr. Rayson stated previously, the true issue here is the risk of impaction related injury and death. I would venture to guess that improper choice and application of substrate is second only to water temperature issues as leading causes of death and illness in aquatic caudates. I should note here that there are plant substrates that pose little or no impaction risk. I will also state, that you can use impaction risk type substrates IF they are properly layered to keep them buried. This issue that arises in this use is as stated before: The risk of anaerobic action increases dramatically. Anaerobic bacterial action has a much more serious impact on caudates than it does on fish for the simple reasoning that caudates tend to spend much time on and in the substrate. Couple this with the gas permeable skin they have by design and you open up a whole new can of worms!

Strictly based on the factor of safety to the animals involved, I would suggest a topsoil based planted tank over a laterite or flourite based tank. Or use of the product Frank has utilized in his very successful, veterinarian approved set up.

More on this can be found here:http://www.caudata.org/forum/showthread.php?t=62407&highlight=aquascaping and here:http://www.caudata.org/forum/showthread.php?t=62491&highlight=planted
Quite a bit of excellent data can also be found here:http://www.plantedtank.net/

There are also a plethora of books, both good and bad, on the subject.

Hi Forrestcook,

You are quite right in what you say, However maintaining a heavily planted tanks and getting the benefits from anaerobic bacteria is something best suited to experienced keepers. Many of the people who post here are beginners and as such are often advised in a way that is easier for them to understand and follow.

Which is why the article makes reference to a substrate depth of 2 cm. I don't believe it is deliberately misleading.

Hi guys!! thank you all for your answers...
The thing is that I have a planted tank in similar conditions (light, water hardness, a bit wormer). In this tank everything is Ok. I was wondering, I dont have any special light or anything, the difference between both tanks is that in my axies tank I use zeolite and bottled (sald added) water. I was thinking that this combination could lead into a lack of nutrients... what do you think?

as for substrate, it was just a thought... thanks for the tip, the biggest risk is impaction, I believe a major issue to consider.
I was thinking, for plants that need to be deep in substrate, use something that could be used like a pot to make the substrate deeper, just in those areas.

what do you think?

Johnny: grat links!!! thanks!

Potting your plants could be a great solution. I've seen a number of fishkeepers who pot large plant masses so they're easy to move around or remove. You could also cap whatever substrate you choose with sand to avoid the impaction issue. A standard unsealed clay pot usually does the trick (soak and wash it thoroughly though... Clay is porous and who knows what it picked up on the way to your tank?)

as far as why the two tanks reveal such different plant keeping abilities, it's tough to tell. I've never used anything but tap water for any of my tanks and the plants (and critters) have always done well. Does one tank receive more natural light than the other? Does one tank have a higher bioload than the other? (plants like the waste...)

the temp shouldn't be that big of a deal since many aquarium plants do better in the low 70s than the high 70s to low 80s that many tanks are kept at... If I had to guess I'd bet that your bottled and salted water is missing somethingyour plant needs. But again that is just a guess. You could try switching some plants between the two and seeng what happens.

Thanks!!! I agree with you, it is really hard to tell, maybe the combination different conditions and not just one. I have done that, switching plants from one tank to another, and the result is that thay like much better the other tank.

Yes, the planted tank has bigger bioload too!. I will get the floursh, and see what happens.

Thanks a lot!!!