Kaiseri and Chytrid

In the spring of this year I purchased some wild-caught Neurergus kaiseri for myself and one of my newt loving friends. I later gave the ones I was going to keep for myself to another guy into newts and the ones I sent him and the ones I sent the girl tested positive for chytrid so buy c.b., ok?

I can think of several other reasons why purchasing WC kaiseri is a bad idea....not to say inmoral....

Speaking of which, at the pet store I go, he said that kaiseri are down to $75 each. He told me they were available for him to order at $150 a couple months ago. I'm still not interested, though.

azhael said:

I can think of several other reasons why purchasing WC kaiseri is a bad idea....not to say inmoral....

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hahaha just reference every forum ever discussing Kaiseri (especially one with John in it) for an idea of how Caudata enthusiasts feel about WC anything.

A few things:

1)The kaiseri in the pet trade almost certainly contracted the chytrid FROM the pet trade.

2) If you have bought WC amphibians of any species in the past 5 years or have recieved animals (even CB) from people who have bought WC amphibians, etc. then it is very likely that you have chytrid right now in your collection.

3) Captive breeding does not stop nor prevent chytrid, so it doesn't matter if you buy WC or CB. Both are equally likely to have chytrid at this point. Chytrid positive parents do not produce chytrid negative eggs. As long as the eggs have been exposed to the same water the adults were in, the chytrid can/will be passed on. This goes for any CB of any newt species now.

4) Chytrid is the least of kaiseri's problems. They appear to be essentially unaffected by it, as are all Salamandrids I'm aware of who have tested positive for chytrid.

5) If you are buying CB kaiseri at a price anywhere near or greater than the wholesale price of wild caught adults (currently around 50-70$), you are directly contributing to their extinction by continuing the profitability of collecting the WC adults.

Surprise!

Chytrid has been introduced in many areas through bait shop tiger salamanders. Wild populations of tigers have been shown to have chytrid. I don't think wild populations of N. kaiseri have been shown to have chytrid. Chances are somewhere along the line poor quarantine was practiced and the kaiseri picked up the chytrid.

azhael said:

I can think of several other reasons why purchasing WC kaiseri is a bad idea....not to say inmoral....

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Maybe I should have worded my first post differently. This was meant to be more about the fungus than the species. I would have posted in one of the long threads about kaiseri if it were only about them.

otterwoman said:

Speaking of which, at the pet store I go, he said that kaiseri are down to $75 each. He told me they were available for him to order at $150 a couple months ago. I'm still not interested, though.

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The guy I got mine from wanted $150 each, but I traded him axolotls and various other c.b. caudates for most of them.

spiro666 said:

hahaha just reference every forum ever discussing Kaiseri (especially one with John in it) for an idea of how Caudata enthusiasts feel about WC anything.

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Yes, you're right. Caudata enthusiasts will complain a lot about people keeping WC animals. It's too bad they're all hypocrites and 98% of the members here with anything more than axolotls have at least one w.c. animal in their collection! Strange how that works!

nate said:

3) Captive breeding does not stop nor prevent chytrid, so it doesn't matter if you buy WC or CB. Both are equally likely to have chytrid at this point. Chytrid positive parents do not produce chytrid negative eggs. As long as the eggs have been exposed to the same water the adults were in, the chytrid can/will be passed on. This goes for any CB of any newt species now.

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Thanks for clarifying that.

nate said:

5) If you are buying CB kaiseri at a price anywhere near or greater than the wholesale price of wild caught adults (currently around 50-70$), you are directly contributing to their extinction by continuing the profitability of collecting the WC adults.

Surprise!

Click to expand...

I've noticed that you seem to feel very strongly about this. Funny thing, I remember you telling me you were trying to round up a large number of w.c. kaiseri to add to the zoo's group not even a year ago. How many wild-caught animals does that zoo have now? Does the fact that you work at a zoo make it ok for you to obtain wild-caught animals, but when a hobbiest does the same exact thing, it's wrong? On top of that, I remember you telling me that well over 90% of the c.b. offspring of those animals are culled from the group to simulate "natural selection", what is so natural about dumping eggs of a critically endangered species down the drain? I'm certain the number of w.c. kaiseri at that zoo is higher than the small number of w.c. animals that I've obtained. Therefore, I believe the word you meant to use was "we" and not "you" implying that I acted alone.

WE have directly contributed to the extinction of wild kaiseri, couldn't have done it without you, Nate.

I would like to return to the chytrid aspect of this thread...

Does anyone else see this as a wakeup call? We aren't just talking about kaiseri (or just about WC animals) here. It's quite likely that many of us (perhaps most) have chytid in our animals. Even if it causes no symptoms in caudates, I can still see some troubling implications. Chytrid is surely a problem for many types of frogs in captivity. If most caudate collections are contaminated, this would suggest that it's a bad idea for anyone to be trying to keep both dart frogs and caudates in the same household, for example.

Hi all,

Well, at this very moment, we are conducting a major survey on the presence of chytrid infections in captive amphibians. Actually and a bit contrary to my starting hypothesis, at least in Belgium and the Netherlands, the prevalence appears to be surprisingly low, especially in captive urodelans. This does NOT mean that we should be careless: I would highly recommend having every newly acquired animal (or group of animals) tested and kept in strict quarantine (including avoiding any contamination of the environment) until proven negative.
As for the N kaiseri: what is also important is the method by which the infection was diagnosed.

Frank

Jake said:

Yes, you're right. Caudata enthusiasts will complain a lot about people keeping WC animals. It's too bad they're all hypocrites and 98% of the members here with anything more than axolotls have at least one w.c. animal in their collection! Strange how that works!.

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First of all, none of us starts in this hobby with all the lessons learnt. And secondly, i only complain about WC animals when they are ilegal, unnecessary or a direct crime against the species as is the case with kaiseri.
It´s funny how sharing the blame with others appears to make things ok....
I think you took my comment as a direct attack against you, and i assure you it was not. However i think anyone would have a really hard time trying to validate the morality of acquiring WC animals of this species....

I´m not defending anyone here but about your comment on the difference between zoos/hobbyists....there IS a difference. The zoo has a breeding program...an actual breeding program, proper. And the animals produced could at some point be re-introduced, something that no animal owned by a hobbyists has the possibility of doing.
So yes...there is a difference. And if someone has to own WC kaiseri i hope it´s zoos with captive breeding programs and not individuals.


Frank, that´s good news. It would be interesting to compare prevalence of chytrid fungus in caudate collections in Europe versus the U.S...perhaps there is a big difference.

"As for the N kaiseri: what is also important is the method by which the infection was diagnosed."
I´m sorry Frank, could you elaborate?

frank_pasmans said:

This does NOT mean that we should be careless: I would highly recommend having every newly acquired animal (or group of animals) tested and kept in strict quarantine (including avoiding any contamination of the environment) until proven negative.

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Who offers swab testing kits and analysis in the UK? Without a well defined, affordable process for lay people, such as myself, I doubt many hobbyists would go to the effort. Furthermore, what would be the recommendation for animals found to be carrying chytrid?

If processes exist perhaps it would be a good idea to have them documented on CC? I believe Treewalkers were trying to organise affordable test kits in the US. Cost is probably the biggest factor here. If it’s expensive people won’t bother.

I've noticed that you seem to feel very strongly about this. Funny thing, I remember you telling me you were trying to round up a large number of w.c. kaiseri to add to the zoo's group not even a year ago. How many wild-caught animals does that zoo have now? Does the fact that you work at a zoo make it ok for you to obtain wild-caught animals, but when a hobbiest does the same exact thing, it's wrong? On top of that, I remember you telling me that well over 90% of the c.b. offspring of those animals are culled from the group to simulate "natural selection", what is so natural about dumping eggs of a critically endangered species down the drain? I'm certain the number of w.c. kaiseri at that zoo is higher than the small number of w.c. animals that I've obtained. Therefore, I believe the word you meant to use was "we" and not "you" implying that I acted alone.

WE have directly contributed to the extinction of wild kaiseri, couldn't have done it without you, Nate.

Click to expand...

It would seem by my use of the word "you", my post was perceived as some kind of attack on you (Jake). It surely wasn't meant to be, and I know you've done the right thing with at least a few of your kaiseri. The "you" I mentioned was to be the reader. But the following "yous" are in fact for you (Jake). If you're of the opinion that amphibian assurance colonies (that were started based on the recommendations of some leading researchers in this species) are on the same level as every other kaiseri purchase by hobbyists, then I suppose it is indeed what you think it is. If you think the culling of offspring, regardless of careful and proven genetic management practices, is simply dumping animals down the drain, then again...it is indeed what you think it is. I'll take full responsibility for my part in the looming extinction of kaiseri as you insist I must. But I'll also take responsibility for my part in the recovery effort.

Does anyone else see this as a wakeup call? We aren't just talking about kaiseri (or just about WC animals) here. It's quite likely that many of us (perhaps most) have chytid in our animals. Even if it causes no symptoms in caudates, I can still see some troubling implications. Chytrid is surely a problem for many types of frogs in captivity. If most caudate collections are contaminated, this would suggest that it's a bad idea for anyone to be trying to keep both dart frogs and caudates in the same household, for example.

Click to expand...

Think about all the other salamanders, let alone frogs, that shared a building/water with that last wave of kaiseri. There were some pretty big distributors holding them. All of those animals are likely infected. and all of the folks who bought those animals likely exposed their home collections. And anyone who bought/received newts from Jake since spring have probably exposed their collections. But the reality is, Jake could have just as easily had chytrid in his collection before the kaiseri acquisition. To me, it's esentially uncontrollable at this point, and that was the point I was trying to make above all others. Frank's comments about the prevalence of chytrid in the Netherlands and Belgium is certainly hopeful.

In the US outdoors, chytrid is really everywhere you look for it. And just because you may not find it in a sample, it doesn't mean it's not there. You could have easily just missed it with that particular swab.

frank_pasmans said:

Hi all,

Well, at this very moment, we are conducting a major survey on the presence of chytrid infections in captive amphibians. Actually and a bit contrary to my starting hypothesis, at least in Belgium and the Netherlands, the prevalence appears to be surprisingly low, especially in captive urodelans. This does NOT mean that we should be careless: I would highly recommend having every newly acquired animal (or group of animals) tested and kept in strict quarantine (including avoiding any contamination of the environment) until proven negative.
As for the N kaiseri: what is also important is the method by which the infection was diagnosed.

Frank

Click to expand...

Are you aware that there is a similar study underway in the US? It is being conducted by TreeWalkers. Unfortunately, the testing by Treewalkers does not include any caudates.

Jake's kaiseri were diagnosed based on a PCR test. So it is quite possible that they didn't have any active infection, but were just carrying a few spores. Until testing becomes more commonplace among hobbyists, it's really hard to make any intepretation from this single data point.

what can be done if you have a 'positive' collection of animals? Is there a cure for hobbyists?

I'm not personally aware of what the options are for you in Holland, but I'm sure Frank could answer that.

As for folks in the US, the usual treatment is a series of itraconazole baths and subsequent testings. It would also have to be done by a vet.

In an effort to answer my own question I've requested details and costs from the epidemiology dept of the zoological society of London (ZSL). I'll let you know what they come back with.

Can anyone here confirm the effectiveness of the Lamisil treatment that has been circling around the frog world? If it really is as effective as claimed chytrid is no longer a menace to captive collections but merely an annoyance.(itroconazole if I remember correctly is quite expensive and so treatment is not practical for most).

spiro666 said:

hahaha just reference every forum ever discussing Kaiseri (especially one with John in it) for an idea of how Caudata enthusiasts feel about WC anything.

Click to expand...

It´s not about WC anything. I don´t like the idea of WC animals (outside the necessary numbers for maintaining genetic quality, or cases like zoological breeding programs) but that´s my personal opinion. One that i have developed as i learnt more about the hobby.
The problem here is not just that they are WC (which is only a problem for some of us)...it´s that they are ILLEGALLY WC, and the reason for the species to be in severe trouble.

Azhael,

i saw your reply to Jake about the zoo comment 6 days ago and I agree more than you can imagine. The reason I commented like that was not intended to be "100% against WC animals period" (as i do agree with variables such as availability) but specifically with the Kaiseri as a lot of the forums involving their distribution mention their threatened state, high prices, and general need of restraint on the hobbyist side to purchasing from illegitimate sources.

On a more relevant note. I do not know if any of my caudata have chytrid but my PDF and Tree frogs all seem to be fine. My system runs of a shared reservoir for the misting system so there would definitely be problems if the disease was presented from a caudata being in the system. Is quarantine of new species (until they can be tested) the best way to prevent spread?

Back to the chytrid:
well, several "chytridiomycosis" cases have been misidentified in the past, depending on the technique used. Actually, at this moment, the "gold standard" is the real time PCR technique, which is highly sensitive.
As for treatment: we are working on an easy and safe treatment (itraconazole treatment is not practical in our countries) but for this moment, I can only recommend the itraconazole.
In the UK, the lab of Trent Garner provides this I think. We do it also at our lab; costs are approx 30 Euro per sample. At this moment, we are trying out whether simply collecting fluid from the water area is sufficient to determine the Bd status of a colony. I hope to give you some positive results in the near future.

Frank