Cichlid pellets?

I was just wondering if anyone has fed their axies cichlid pellets. My African clawed frogs eat them, and lots of people recommend them (as well as turtle pellets) for ACFs. Is there a reason no one feeds them to axolotls, or has no one tried it? If this works, I'd love to switch my guys over to those- they're dirt cheap, and readily available. On top of that, tons of ACF keepers report much brighter colors when feeding cichlid pellets compared to standard foods, which would be cool.

You'd need to check the nutritional value against that of other recommended Axolotl foods. I wouldn't substitute a good, healthy diet on the grounds of an alternative being 'dirt cheap', though.

Other than nutritional content (%), the types of proteins, fats and carbohydrates plays an impotant role as well. As axies have a simple carnivorous alimentary tract, they absorb nutrients and assimilate them better if the nutrtional content are packed in a 'meat' derived product, compared to a plant derived product.

For eg. 1g of protein from worm derived product vs 1g of protein from soy/plant derived product.

The axie will absorb worm derived nutrient better and more effectively. In some cases, with inappropriate diets, even if the package indicates 1g of protein, the axie cannot effectively digest the protein source (ie from plants), its basically passed out through the system untouched.

Many types of pellets for turtles and ciclids are derived from a mix of animal and plant matter. They would be ok as an occasional snack but is not suitable as a long term staple. Furthermore because the nutrients may be passed out undigested/unassimilated, it is not as 'cost effective' as it appears to be. I would stick with axie pellets or sinking trout/salmon pellets.

Thanks for the input. First off, my thought on it is that Xenopus laevis is also a 100% aquatic obligate carnivore. They benefit from a diet of 100% worms and Rangen pellets are also a commonly recommended food, and it has been shown that many of them do better on a diet of mixed cichlid & turtle pellets than on simply worms. I'm not just looking for a cheap diet- I'm looking for the best all around diet while factoring in nutritional value, availability, and cost. Since Rangen pellets can be bought as cheap as $0.60/lb, I'm relatively sure they're the cheapest thing.


Here's some nutritional information about some of the different foods-


Rangen's "Soft-Moist Sinking Salmon Pellet"


Protein ...44
Fat.........18
Fiber.......<5
Ash.........<8

Ingredients: fish meal, wheat feed flour, blood meal, fish oil, ascorbic acid, biotin, choline chloride, folic acid, niacin, panthothenic acid (d-calcium panthothenate), pyroxidine(hydrochloride), riboflavin, thiamine (mononitrate), vitamin B12 supplement, vitamin A (acetate), vitamin D (d-activated animal sterol), vitamin E (dl-alphatocopheryl acetate), vitamin K3 (menadione sodium bisulfate complex), copper sulfate, manganese sulfate, potassium iodate, salt, zinc, sulfate, ethoxyquin (preservative), proprionic acid, sorbic acid, propylene glycol.



HBH Soft Sinking Newt & Salamander pellets

Fish meal, wheat flour, blood meal, fish oil, krill, l-ascorbic acid, phosphate (source of vitamin C), biotin, choline chloride, folic acid, niacin supplement, d-calcium pantothenate, pyridoxine hydrochloride, riboflavin supplement, astaxanthin, thiamine mononitrate, vitamin B12 supplement, vitamin A supplement, vitamin D3 supplement, vitamin E supplement, vitamin K3 supplement, copper sulfate, manganese sulfate, potassium iodate, salt, zinc sulfate, ethoxyquin (preservative), propionic acid


Omega One Super Color Sinking Cichlid Pellets


Guaranteed Analysis
Min. Crude Protein….38%
Min. Crude Fat……….12%
Max. Crude Fiber…….2%
Max. Moisture………..8.5%
Max. Ash……………...8%
Min. Phosphorus…….(.5%)
Min. Omega 3 ………. 1%
Min. Omega 6………..(.5%)

INGREDIENTS: Whole Salmon, Halibut, Whole Shrimp, Wheat Flour, Wheat Gluten, Fresh Kelp, Krill, Lecithin, Astaxanthin, Zeaxanthin, L-Ascorbyl-2-Phosphate (Source of Vitamin C), Natural and Artificial Colors, Vitamin A Acetate, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Vitamin E Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Riboflavin, Niacin, Pantothenic Acid, Choline Chloride, Folic Acid, Biotin, Inositol, Tocopherol (Preservative), Ethoxyquin (Preservative).


Earth Worms contain-
Crude Protein-62.2%
Crude Fat-17.7%
Calcium-1.72




Types of proteins are essentially the same (fish) between the two diets- Omega One actually sounds like it has better proteins in it to me than Rangen does! Where Rangen only uses "fish meal" (meaning "leftover scraps"), Omega One actually uses whole salmon and whole shrimp. Omega One also includes fresh kelp- some plant matter. Yes, both ACFs and axolotls are obligate carnivores. Absolutely. However, even obligate carnivores consume vegetable matter. They simply get it through the prey they eat in the wild. Most people recommend gut loading worms or other live feeders before feeding them out- what are you gut loading them with? Vegetable matter. This is why the highest quality carnivore foods for most species of animals (from dogs all the way up to big cats) include some plant matter. Wheat is included in both of the diets, and I'm fairly sure that's primarily a binding agent to help form a pellet. Either way, wheat is generally a filler ingredient- very few carnivores can digest wheat. In Rangen's diet it's the #2 ingredient, with more wheat than even blood meal.

The %s are different- Rangen has a higher protein and fat percentage. But Rangen seems to me like they don't use as high of quality ingredients. Rangen also includes copper sulfates, which have been shown to have negative impact on reptiles and amphibians- most people recommend not feeding ANY copper sulfates to herps. They're shown to hinder development of amphibians. A little looking into it shows that copper sulfates are added to salmon food to help prevent algae growth on the nets & such in farms! If we're told not to add it to our axolotl tanks, why are we recommending food that contains it, especially when the only purpose of it in food is to prevent algae growth?


And as a final bit of input-
Farm raised salmon lack the nutritional value of wild caught salmon. They don't contain the same amount of vitamins, the omega fatty acids, have tons of bad things in them (preservatives, pesticides, etc. . .) and simply aren't as good for you. Why? Many people say it's because farm raised salmon are fed garbage food that is primarily waste product, compared to the healthy whole foods they eat in the wild.

Are you intending to feed the axies a staple diet of just the cichlid pellets? As mentioned in my previous post, i don't think they have any particular detrimental effect if fed as a supplementary snack but i still have my reservations about feeding them exclusively as a sole staple diet.

As a vet and academic, i would err on the side of caution and still offer a variety of known nutritious food sources for axies comprising of live worms, pellets and occasional treats. That would ensure the best nutritional balance.

The science of nutrition is really way more complex than just composition and derived source. Our discussion here is only the tip of the iceberg. It is a major market in the pet food industry. A lot of species specific formulated food are rigorously tested to see how they perform and complement that particular species nutritional physiology. Something that looks good in vitro or on paper may not necessarily perform well in vivo. I agree with some of your ideas regarding nutritional analysis of commercially available products. However, even though theoretically it seems sound, there are no concrete robust studies or clinical trials to support the hypothesis so i really can't definitively say yes that cichlid pellets are ideal as a sole staple for axies.

Right now my axies eat about 2/3 worms and 1/3 soft, sinking HBH pellets, sometimes up to about 50/50. I plan on keeping it somewhere around there. All of them seem much healthier when eating primarily worms. They stay plumper, make less waste, the water stays cleaner, and they're all more active when eating primarily worms. I've been looking for another pellet option because they're big enough that when I feed them pellets, they're eating a TON of them. I've been wanting to buy some of the larger Rangen pellets, but had the thought about cichlid pellets because that's what my ACFs eat (2/3 worms, 1/3 cichlid pellets). It really seems to me that since the two are similar animals (axolotls and African clawed frogs) with similar dietary & care requirements, what's good for one should be good for the other.

I'm still looking at things, but I think I may try feeding my guys some cichlid pellets and see how they do. I'm curious to see if there will be any noticeable difference between them and other foods (the way the sallies act, how much waste they produce, and colors, specifically).

Unfortunately, I don't have a large enough group to really show any results. Maybe I'll wait 'til my first batch of babies, and raise some of them on cichlid pellets, others on soft salmon pellets, and others on worms. That could be interesting to see if there are any growth differences or anything.


Also, you don't have any opinion on Rangen including copper sulfates in their pellets? I'm surprised a vet with knowledge of amphibians wouldn't say anything when he found that out, but would still say that a food known to contain them is a healthy choice over experimenting with other things.

We do not have the Rangen brand of pellets in sydney. The common pellet brands here are axolotl master and allpet. As such, i cannot comment on a product that i have not used or seen.

I can safely tell you though that every ingredient in any of the products you listed (including all the micronutrients - vitamins etc), if in excess quantities/proportions or in an analogue form can still be potentially toxic if used in a non targeted species. Companies carefully formulate their products to ensure safety meant for that species.

Hence, i stressed that all commercial products meant for pet consumption has to go through clinical trials and in-vivo testing before they can be marketed for that target species. If you intend to go 'off label' and not follow manufacturer's recommendations, you are taking your own risk. In terms of legality, you do not have a case as well if your axie ends up ill when fed a product not listed or tested to be safe for axies.

Also, it is a big difference between an accusation and a concern. If this particular brand of product has contents that you feel are toxic or inappropriate, you can contact the company for a product information sheet, clinical trial support or contact their veterinary support. If they fail to provide you with a satisfactory answer, you can raise it up further to an authority in your country/state that deals with product safety.

You posted here seeking advice and feedback on using cichlid pellets for axies. As a vet, i advised you based on the safety and welfare of your pets and every statement i said i backed it up with a logical and rational explanation and all without charge. That said, i would not put myself in a position where i face a litigation or be deregistered based on a product i have not used, on a public forum.

I would appreciate a more polite response than "I'm surprised a vet with knowledge of amphibians wouldn't say anything when he found that out, but would still say that a food known to contain them is a healthy choice over experimenting with other things."

Omega One actually sounds like it has better proteins in it to me than Rangen does! Where Rangen only uses "fish meal" (meaning "leftover scraps"), Omega One actually uses whole salmon and whole shrimp. Omega One also includes fresh kelp- some plant matter.
And as a final bit of input-
Farm raised salmon lack the nutritional value of wild caught salmon. They don't contain the same amount of vitamins, the omega fatty acids, have tons of bad things in them (preservatives, pesticides, etc. . .) and simply aren't as good for you. Why? Many people say it's because farm raised salmon are fed garbage food that is primarily waste product, compared to the healthy whole foods they eat in the wild.[/QUOTE]


What do you suppose those whole salmon that are in Omega one were raised on? Do you think they use expensive wild salmon or the cheap commercial salmon raised on Rangen salmon pellets?

The old axolotl colony and University of Kentucky ambystoma colony recommend Rangen salmon pellets. They seem to work fine if you pay attention to tank maintenance. Rangen salmon pellets have been my staple food for Ambystoma mexicanum and Ambystoma andersoni. It is also very economical. I started using salmon pellets because they were the recommended. I continue to use them because they work fine and are less expensive than others.

Hi there! i am actually trying to get my axolotl to try some omega one large sinking pellets (normally he will only eat bloodworms) Is there a technique to this, because for the most part he ignores them completely. Maybe a different type?

Darkmaverick said:

I would appreciate a more polite response than "I'm surprised a vet with knowledge of amphibians wouldn't say anything when he found that out, but would still say that a food known to contain them is a healthy choice over experimenting with other things."

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I'm sorry- I didn't mean to offend at all. But I was surprised that I pointed out that the brand of pellets available for axolotls in the US contains copper sulfates, and you still said it would be better to go with that than to look into something else. It seemed odd to me that you didn't even acknowledge that. I think the problem is simply this- We don't have any such thing as axolotl pellets in the US. As far as I know, the only pellets in the US people recommend for axolotls are salmon pellets, with Rangen being the #1 brand by far. Every bit of any information I've been able to find recommends Rangen brand pellets- like Michael said, the Kentucky University group uses them, and they're probably the #1 source for legit information on Axolotls in the US. But like you said; you won't recommend off-label use. Unfortunately, ALL axolotl food in the US is off-label use. Rangen doesn't recommend the feed be used for axolotls. Other people do.

You posted here seeking advice and feedback on using cichlid pellets for axies. As a vet, i advised you based on the safety and welfare of your pets and every statement i said i backed it up with a logical and rational explanation and all without charge. That said, i would not put myself in a position where i face a litigation or be deregistered based on a product i have not used, on a public forum.

You say that, as if I'm attacking you, yet, before that you said:

As a vet and academic, i would err on the side of caution and still offer a variety of known nutritious food sources for axies comprising of live worms, pellets and occasional treats. That would ensure the best nutritional balance.

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To me in the US where we only have Rangen (or other brands of salmon feed that are very similar) pellets for axolotls, that sounded like you were endorsing Rangen pellets. Calling something a "known nutritious food source" and not commenting on the fact that it contains a chemical toxic to amphibian at ANY level seemed odd. Now, it sounds like you were recommending the brands you use in Australia.

I do appreciate everything you've said about the topic. You have provided much food for thought, and I'm thrilled to have someone intelligent's opinion on it, as the general internet user tends to not have a very scientific background, and it's hard to judge someone's qualifications to form an opinion.

What do you suppose those whole salmon that are in Omega one were raised on? Do you think they use expensive wild salmon or the cheap commercial salmon raised on Rangen salmon pellets?

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I honestly hadn't thought of that. It's a good point. Does anyone know if copper sulfates build up in fish tissue? I don't know what the nutrient return would be- do salmon pellets have a higher nutritional content than farm-raised salmon? Seems like the topic is probably getting to the point where we won't see much in the line of results on an (at least primarily) amateur enthusiast message board. At first thought about it, I would expect the other ingredients in the cichlid pellets to balance out whatever lack of nutrients the salmon would contain.

The old axolotl colony and University of Kentucky ambystoma colony recommend Rangen salmon pellets. They seem to work fine if you pay attention to tank maintenance. Rangen salmon pellets have been my staple food for Ambystoma mexicanum and Ambystoma andersoni. It is also very economical. I started using salmon pellets because they were the recommended. I continue to use them because they work fine and are less expensive than others.

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That's a valid opinion on the matter. A ton of people feed Rangen pellets, and more than one lab recommends them. That they work as food, I won't deny.
However, I'm of the belief that rarely is there something we CAN'T improve on. Science continually improves almost everything in our lives. Asbestos worked as a building material. It took us how many years to figure out that not only were there better products, but it was toxic.
While Rangen pellets are a good choice, I still don't know that they are the BEST choice. It seems to me like not many people have experimented with different things, asides from pet stores giving bad advice about individual animals. It makes me curious to see if there's another choice out there that will blow Rangen out of the water, and none of us have found it yet.

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Of the foods discussed I've only used earthworms and thin slivers of cheap farmed salmon on one axolotl which developed a rejection of worms after I fed it a red fetid one. It thrived on this alone before recovering a tolerance of other foods.

I doubt the copper in the pellets is added to control algae. The ingredients are usually listed in descending order and in both pellet mixes it is declared at a level below Vitamin K. My guess is the manufacturers are using an off the shelf vitamin and mineral mix supplied by a pharmaceutical company. All the pellets declare vitamin C. It may be added to stop the pellets going rancid but usually it is a marker of an off the shelf vitamin mix. Only humans, some monkeys and guinea pigs need it.

No one is going to trial the level of every single nutrient in a mix for an individual species. The pellets have probably been tested for food conversion ratio in salmon and trout, the rest is down to reputation.

All the products mentioned look reasonable as axolotl food and I cannot see any reason why they should not be used. Which will work best is another matter. Trials would need large groups of animals and careful records. There is also the problem as to what is ideal. Growth is excellent on earthworms but I wonder if a food mix with higher digestible carbohydrate would produce the same growth with lower ammonia production. My axies are using protein as an energy source rather than as a material to build muscle and other tissues.

Cichlid pellets are OK in a pinch, but they are definitely not a suitable staple.

During my stint as a surfer/beach bum in Southern California, I managed to lazy my way out of a place to live. I added couch surfing to my list of skills. My axolotls lived in five gallon buckets with battery operated air pumps for about six months. (I lost everything and could barely afford to feed myself, but my axies were staying with me come hell or high water!) During this time, I could not afford live foods, and could not get to pet stores that sold suitable pellets. I used a couple of different brands of cichlid pellets instead as a staple. Both of my axolotls showed significant weight loss and lethargy during this time, even though all other parameters were perfect.

I definitely value Michael's, Johnny's and Oceanblue's inputs. They have extensive experience as axie breeders and training in scientific fields.

Rnocera's initial question was whether cichlid pellets can be used for axies. I wasn't against the idea but cautioned to use them as a supplementary feed to augment a varied diet comprising of live food. I hence actually answered the question. Cichlid food should be ok as a snack but not as staple as mentioned in my earlier post. I acknowledged that the ideas put forward are interesting.

It digressed to pointing out why i wasn't commenting on individual commercial products listed. (Who knew you can still get into trouble even when not commenting) I feel that this is a very unfair onus to place on me as it borders on questioning commercial product safety and has a direct conflict of interest in terms of my profession. I acknowledged Rnocera's ideas and suggested that more robust and concrete data can be obtained by communicating with the company/companies. They will always have a veterinary and research support department which can be of help. It is better to approach matters in a systematic, communicative manner than jumping to conclusion. I was not advocating particular brands of any commerical product. I cannot comment on products that i have not used or seen as its not a fair thorough judgement. If i were to pass any comments on specific products, to advocate or against their use, i can technically be liable for professional negligence if any mishaps were to occur. I was offended as it placed me in a difficult position and insinuated my competency as a professional.

In a way, I am trying to protect rnocera too by highlighting that since these products are not indicated for axolotl specific use, their off-label use means that the responsibility lies with oneself.

Many commercial products, human or pet food, contain traces of colouring, preservatives and flavouring that can have a deterimental effect on health. Its the proportion, the amount and the isoforms (analogues) that determines if it is of negligible effect or will cause profound adverse effects. Different species react and respond differently to the same substance.

Reputable breeders and research laboratories have used some of the products listed without problems. It mimics a clinical trial in the sense (although not perfect) that large numbers of animals are recruited over a long period of time and by indpendent people. In my opinion, that is why some of these products gain popularity/acceptance as good results (and minimal side effects) were observed. That is not to say there is no scope for further investigation or improvement. I am sure if someone found a particular product to have great feed conversion capacity, economical, improves the axie's condition and show little or no side effects, the new product will soon gain reputation as well.