I'm not paranoid ?

My guess is that on an average I'm asked to break a law or advise somebody about breaking a law several times a week. I keep getting people asking me to ship animals to other countries without permits. People ask how to get animals imported without permits. People tell me they know hellbenders aren't legal to have and then ask where to get them. People walk up to me at Pa. shows with tubs of native Pa. salamanders asking me if I want to buy any. I was even asked by a keeper at a zoo if I wanted some c.b. native Pa. salamanders. I get requests for dead salamanders from people in other countries. They tell me I don't need any paperwork since they are dead.

Do people not research the laws? Do people understand the laws and not want to go by them? Is their an elite group of undercover salamander cops trying to bust hobbyists? Sometimes I think all three are true.

michael said:

Do people not research the laws? Do people understand the laws and not want to go by them?

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I think, in a lot of situations, these two hold true.

Thanks for putting up with all of that though, I know I appreciate it when I see your very tempting (and CB, legal) adds.

Too true, gentlemen. I used to get the same sort of thing when I worked in antiques. It is unfortunate that the disrespectful are louder and more noticeable than the respectful. I believe the latter is the majority in spite of appearances and always just tried to ignore the former. The annoyingly uninformed...well, I guess they give us teaching opportunities and a chance for good to come of the situation.

Thank you, Michael, for standing up for what is right and rising above the rest.

DDiS

I had someone ask me to send him some of my red-eyed froglets to him in Mexico. I didn't know for sure it was illegal or not, but I wasn't going to do it. It didn't seem all that kosher to me considering that there is an international border there to consider.

Does this mean that I should ask someone else about getting some CA tiger salamanders? Seriously though, you have made quite a name for yourself as a salamander keeper and breeder. Unfortunately along with this you are going to attract those less concerned about the law. If you ever do give in to the dark side however I want an autographed copy of 'The Salamander King' !
Chip

freves said:

I want an autographed copy of 'The Salamander King' !

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That was very funny!

Why would people want dead salamanders sent to another country? And wouldn't it be decomposed by the time it got there?

I know for a fact that undercover Fish and Game agents are at the Hamburg PA show. One of the venders there got a nice fine for his box turtles and his stink pot turtles. They walk around just talking people up. To see what you have. So you are not Paranoid. And people should not be asking you to break the law in the first place. And the law should not go around asking people to do it either but they do.

Thanks for the compliments. The guy that wanted dead salamanders wanted them for research. They would have to be preserved somehow.

I do understand that people make innocent mistakes about amphibian laws. I do feel that quite often the people who want me to do something illegal also understand the rules.

I do really believe that their are undercover salamander cops (Fish and Wildlife, Fish and Boat, Dept. of Ag., etc.). I think these people will try to trick people into breaking the law. They do undercover work at reptile shows and through the internet. I think law enforcement has a place but sometimes officials step over the line.

I don't think your paranoid. What easier way to make a fine or confiscation (which supports success in your own gov.dept. in times of financial cutbacks) than to target breeders and exotics/reptile shows. Not much man-power involved to get a conviction,just work a weekend.

There is the innocent family member(usually a kid) who wants a particular pet and tries to order one without even being aware that that critter is illegal in their state. The laws aren't all that easy to read when your young. I think a lot of parents figure if you can buy it it must be legal.

Also, the law changes in each locality. I had pets thirty years ago that are illegal now where I live. I'm not sure why this changed,because they couldn't survive the environment if they escaped.
So I guess I'm naturally paranoid.

This was interesting. Thank you michael

Michael,

You are one of America's top breeder with what you do. What better way to stir the hobbyist community than to bring down one of its big names like you. See, the undercover sal cops or what ever you call them want to bring down big names to get the attention and because they have power trips. All cops have it. Its simple, they think if they can bring down a big name they will get rewarded or known for their "so called" good deed. I dont think your paranoid, I think you are smart. Also maybe competition has said something untrue to get them watching you. Who knows because so many people today are messed up and will do anything to feel power or make a $$$

michael said:

Do people not research the laws? Do people understand the laws and not want to go by them? Is their an elite group of undercover salamander cops trying to bust hobbyists? Sometimes I think all three are true.

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I was just looking at your Ambystoma andersoni post on Kingsnake, and remembered this post. Perhaps sometimes we just get carried away by our dreams. Ambystoma ≠ CA

Oh, you’re not paranoid. I got a “fishing” phone call a couple of months ago. No matter how I steered the conversation it always went back to gray areas. The guy had to be fresh fish-cop, just hilarious questions. I especially liked the way he would repeat a question to make sure he got my answer recorded. Just too funny.

It's true there are a lot of under cover wildlife cops (and other "undercover" officers) who couldn't blend in if their life depended on it. There are also quite a few knarks out there who want to feel better about themselves, so they rat out everyone around them because they get a false feeling of supremacy (and because they have no friends). I occasionally am offered native amphibians, but 9 times out of 10 it's one or two animals that someone found and doesn't know any better. In some states you can only keep certain species if they were collected out of state and you have the receipt with the animals at all times to prove it.

The best thing to do is play it safe and follow the guidelines.

The police are the most dangerous, untidy street gang in the world. We hobbiests can't break the salamander laws, but cops get away with selling narcotics, harassment and murder! Such a lovely world we live in!

To be honest, I am not an expert on amphibian laws in PA myself. Are you telling me Michael that it is illegal to sell or buy native PA species in PA? Where can I read these laws? I am assuming that since most all of my salamander exchanges involved you that I own legal PA species? I have one noto left from some I collected years ago, which according to the Fishing lisence rulebook I got back then was legal. Hopefully it still is.

Their is no quick easy reference for Pa. reptile and amphibian regs. The best sources seem to be Fish and Boat web site and the fishing license hand book. You should be allowed to have two of each kind of native Pa. Notos. I never sell any native Pa stuff and rarely sell native U.S. stuff. Pa. regs are a big muddle.

Jake said:

The best thing to do is play it safe and follow the guidelines.

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Even following the guidelines and laws is not allways enough when one is talking about international sales. CITES is an international agreement between governments that should protect endangered wildlife. But even CITES is faulty.

The IUCN Red List of Threatened Species is the world's most comprehensive inventory of the global conservation status of plant and animal species. At the moment there are 273 salamander species that are found to be endangered (IUCN assessment CR, EN or VU).

Still CITES protects only 6 species of salamanders (Ambystoma dumerilii, A. lermaense, A. mexicanum, Andrias davidianus, A. japonicus and Pleurodeles poireti). This means that there are 267 species of salamanders that are endangered, but are not protected by international conservation treaty. That is ~46 % of all salamander species of the world! If these species are not protected by local laws, there is nothing that legally forbids me, or any other salamander hobbyist, buying these salamander. Absolotely legally!

So if you are buying salamanders internationally (as many of us do, via pet shops), please make sure that the species is not endangered, and your purchase doesn't threaten local populations of potentially endangered animals.

Joonas- Perhaps you misunderstood what I meant. When I said "follow the guidelines" I meant follow the rules, the laws, you know? That goes for anything from local to international deals.

Jake said:

Joonas- Perhaps you misunderstood what I meant. When I said "follow the guidelines" I meant follow the rules, the laws, you know? That goes for anything from local to international deals.

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I did understand, but maybe I'm not able to clarify myself: I'm telling that one must follow the laws, and even do more. Because the law (internationally mainly CITES) is not up-to-date, it is our ethical responsibility to do even more than the law says.

It is totally legal se sell species that are endangered, but are not protected by CITES or by national laws. National laws differ, but international CITES neglets more than 250 endangered salamander species. It is up to us (hobbyists) not to acquire these endangered WC animals, even though it might be absolutely legal to acquire them.

Ok, I get what you are saying, but whether aquiring a certain species of anything is "ethical" is purely a matter of opinion. If you knew a critically endangered newt was for sale and in less than optimal conditions and had the choice to buy it in hopes of giving it a better life or watch a number of these amazing creatures die due to improper housing or temperatures, what would you do? You can just watch them die and hope the person doesn't buy any more, but what if there are only a few hundred left in the wild and they'll probably be extinct in a few years? On the other hand you can buy it and provide it with what it needs to survive and possibly breed later down the line, but then people here will basically call you a monster for buying a w.c. animal that would have died anyways. It's a lose-lose situation. When something is extinct in the wild, the only survivors (if any) can be viewed in captivity, but if there are none in captivity then there are none at all and that's a very depressing situation, one that shouldn't happen, but still does. If zoos aren't doing anything about all 250 endangered amphibian species, then who is going to try to make a difference?

I think it's our responsibility in this hobby to maintain these animals in captivity so people in 50 years can enjoy them the way we do and not just read about them in history books, saying "oh, we should have done this, but oops, too late!" You don't honestly know how good something is until you don't have it any more

There is always two sides of the same coin. If one buys an endangered animal from a pet shop, one is creating demand. To fullfill this demand, animal trade catches even more salamanders from the wild. If no one buys the animals, there is no demand for this species, and no new salamanders are taken from the wild. So in some cases it might be better for the species to sacrifice some individuals to save the rest of the population.

From conservation biological point of view an individual that is taken from it's wild population is "biologically dead". And captive populations are worthless for nature. But hopefully in future we are able to succesfully return "extinct in wild" species to nature from captive populations. First we should find a way to stop habitat destruction that most often is the main reason for extinctions.