Summers here, and making its presence clear!

I hate summer! Always have, but now I hate the heat even more because it makes it hard to keep the tank temps at a reasonable number.
I posted a little while ago about an idea of setting up a filter and a plastic tub for use in an empty bar fridge. Unfortunatly, ever since I told my parents about using it, they've decided to start stocking it up. So now I cant use it.
What makes things worse, is that my parents dont like the idea of me putting my axies in the fridge, because it 'doesnt sound safe and helpful for them'. I KNOW RIGHT, stupid parents what do they no!!!!!
So far the tank temp stays at 22' C and overnight it will go down to about 20 then slowly climb back up again!
Ive been using the ice bottle method, but im not home all the time, and most of the time no one else is.
I REALLY WANT A CHILLER! But I have two tanks and there heaps expensive, I dont really know how chillers work anyway (the good ones, Inline chillers?)
There's a cooling method in the caudata culture articles: cooling method 5, it seems like the best one. BUT it requires daily labour and time.....

I NEED HELP, someone PLEASE, what are my options and what should I do? My parents wont let me fridge my axies anymore, how do I change there minds? I want a chiller, whats the best one?

ALLLLLLLL HELP AND COMMENTS APPPRECIATED MUCHLY AND REP POINTS WILL BE SPREAD!!!!!

Hi PatricALOTL,

First and foremost, breathe in, breathe out! Let's take it calmly.

1. Temps at 22°C are ok in summer, particularly with cooling off at night. If temps in the tank get ovr 24°C and stay there for more than one or two days, that's when things can start going pretty wrong pretty quickly, but at 22°C you are going to be ok - AS LONG AS your other water parameters are ok. The warmer water will not hold as much oxygen as cooler water and wastes can get funky more quickly, so you might want to increase your routine water changes and use a dropper test to keep an eye on chemical levels.

2. If you are cooling by 2° at night, perhaps you can do what I did. Close all windows (preferrably with closed curtains or shades, too) during the afternoon and evening until it gets cool outside. Then open all of the windows you can and leave them open through the night. Sometime in late morning, when things start to warm up, close windows and shades again. In this way I was able to make the entire room quite chilly even though it was 34-36°C outside. There are other methods of cooling, too, but I know you have already seen the link.

3. You can't fix parents. They are boring. They were probaly lovely, fun, fascinating people when they met but then they got busy rasing you. Best bet there would be to educate them about your pet. Show them the article about fridging, for example, and all the different threads here about axolotls suffering in the Australian summer.

4. You don't need to give me rep points; I haven't really told you anything that great. And...

5. Finally! I am so pleased to meet someone else who doesn't love summer!

-Eva

Thanks for the reply.

Im glad that 22' C is ok , but soon when the real summer begins its going to get hotter. Its only 9 days into summer, and typically in Aus it lasts for 4 months not 3.

Parents. Frustrating at times. What makes things worse is my mum, does know a little bit about them because her sister had them for years when she was a teenager and not once did they ever need to fridge them or cool the tank, and apperently it was in a normal room, that heated up in Sydneys summer.

I told her I found it hard to believe but she still doesnt understand, Im gunna print up the fridging article like you suggested.

At the moment I have been opening the windows at night and closing the curtains and windows during the day and it definetly does help. The tanks are in the coldest room in the house, and in the middle of summer, theres about a 5-6' C diffrence, (maybe more) then the rooms upstairs.

I definetly would prefer to live in Canada or Alaska with the Moosey's

Axolotls at some pet stores stay in water at 22*C all year round ='[

Patrice, axies are comfortable at waters in the teens (15-19 degrees). Anything above 20, even for a few hours can cause significant stress and illness. Although it depends also on the individual constitution of the axie, 70% of all axies will get inappetant, stressed and ill if the temperature remains high. If you place a healthy axie into a tank set at 22 degrees and left it for 3 days, the axie will almost always end up losing their gill fimbriae and body condition.

4-9 degrees - Aids rapid healing and against bacterial infection but will reduce feeding, less active
10 - 13 degrees - Calming, helps with some types of infection, better feeding, moderately active
14-18 degrees - Comfortable tank temperature. Optimal activity level.
19-20 degrees - Most axies still ok, but some susceptible, weaker ones may get stressed/ill
21 -24 degress - 70% show signs of stress and illness
25 and up - Fatal

I know I'm just a little voice here, but my experience disagrees with yours, Ray. My tanks are at 20-22°C throughout the summer for the past two years and I have never had problems. In winter at water changes the temps dip to 16°C from our cold groundwater but the rest of the time the tanks are between 18-20°C steady.

-Eva

Not having any problems for the period doesn't mean that there is no harm done on the axie. 70% will show visible signs of stress, illness and pathology at necropsy when kept at temperatures 22 degrees and above. If you observe under a microscope, the brancial (gill cells) of an axie kept at 22 degrees will show signs of crenation. The cells lyse and lose their structural integrity. That is why the first thing to go are the gill fimbriae.

Although hardier axies particularly wildtypes may do alright at 22 degrees, many do lose body condition, display behavioural signs of stress (floating, inappetance) and become susceptible to secondary fungal infections.

To keep axies at best health, it is always ideal to keep the temperature between a stable 16-19 degrees.

Reckon the 30 I raised were just lucky enough to belong to the other 30% of your statistic. I agree with you, though, that 16-19°C is ideal. (I wish it would stay within that range outside, too!) :happy:

-Eva

Hi,

maybe there´s a difference between australian and german axies, but I agree with Eva.
I´m housing an raising axolotls for a long time and my axies don´t like temperatures less than 16 degrees C. They aren´t as active and they dont eat as much/often as they do over 16 degrees.
During summer the temp in my tank is 21-22 degrees and my axies feel fine.

2 years ago I´d tried to raise some larvae in cold water (14-15 degrees), but they didn´t eat as much as they should do and their growing was much too slow.

But I do agree that temps over 22 degrees over a long period are stressful and tends to pain.

-Tina-

edit: 16-19 I agree too

Ray, I'm curious as to how you've came up with this guide. Especially the part about 70% of them showing signs of stress..

Darkmaverick said:

19-20 degrees - Most axies still ok, but some susceptible, weaker ones may get stressed/ill
21 -24 degress - 70% show signs of stress and illness
25 and up - Fatal

Click to expand...

It's not quite this straight forward as I understand it. Thermal tolerances, with regards to mortality at least, have been proved to be dependant on a) the temperature the animal is acclimatised to and b) the speed of the temperature change. An axolotl that has been slowly acclimatized to 22C is unlikely to keel over and die during a brief spell of 25C. An animal acclimatised to 10C that is quickly raised to 25C is likely to suffer. The same pattern is seen across both tropical and temperate amphibians. I've seen thermal tolerances documented for some Ambystomatids, I'm not sure about mexicanum. I'll check later.

Thanks so much for your comment, Mark. It's been worming at my logic about why my axolotls have been thriving although they spend at least one month a year around 22°C - indeed, rather than having problems, they seem to be larger and more resilient than those of some in my aquaintance - as opposed to those in Ray's data.

Perhaps Tina wasn't too far off that axolotls are different in Germany and Australia - maybe the ambient temperatures in Australia change much more rapidly than here in drizzly Germany.

@PatricALOTL: Hope we haven't stolen your thread but that you find this info helpful, too.

-Eva

Hi,

Mark has posted a good statement.
But I think we should differentiate between the coloration of the axies, even at constant temperatures.

That axies lose their gill-filaments at high temperatures, we all do agree, I think.
But in my opinion we cannot make a general statement (conclusion?) for an exact temperature, because the different colorations (wild-type, leucistic, albino etc.) react differently.

Whereas wild types are quite insensitive, albinos react much more sensitively to
stress, fungus and bacterial infecions and higher temperatures, too.

Some years ago, I myself made the experience, that temperatures over 22 C led to a drastic shortening of the gills for my albinos (at this time I was a newby and a person with much experience (I thought) told me that it´s normal and no need to worry about). 4 weeks later the gills of my leucistic began to shrink too, but my wild-type didn´t show any signs of variance. “Gollum `s” gills stayed as long and fluffy, as before.

I noticed at caudata as well as at my German forum, that often threads about shrinking gills have been posted and in most cases these axies are albinos or leucistics, rarely wild-types.

Conversely is it at low temperatures. Below 16 C my wild-types hardly want to eat and they are very still – it seems as they`re sleeping the whole day and night. . In contrast, the albinos really blossom at temps under 18 degrees. They are much livlier and have a healthy appetite. They are even lively at 14 degrees and eat well.

So my conclusion is: albinos feel best at low temperatures and wild-types feel better at (a little bit) warmer temperatures.




@Ray: When you write 70%, do you also have information about the statistic regarding color type? What was the percental distribution?



-Tina-

Well there are a few points to address here so i shall just list them.

1 - Activity level doesn't directly indicate the health status of the axie. An axie kept in the fridge can be really inactive and feed much less but can be perfectly healthy. Cold is in fact a panacea for many axie illnesses. Some of the oldest living axies were those kept in fridges. A relaxed axie also tends to remain quite inactive at the bottom of the tank. It is normally recommended to keep axies within the 16-18 degree range because it is the level at which they are most active and hence entertaining to watch. Just because it swims around more doesn't mean its healthier.

2 - I perform diagnostic veterinary pathology/necropsy. As i have a special interest in axies (and lab animal med), i handle all the axie cases that come in across the Sydney Metropolitan area as i work in a specialist referral hospital. So far, my statistics were based on the cases that come in. Sample size 572 for the 08-09 year. These came from breeders, axie farms as well as from hobbyists. Even when housed in the same tank, the dark wildtypes present with a slower rate of cellular pathology compared to a albino or melanoid if housed at high temperatures. Males are overrepresented to be more susceptible to pathology compared to females as well.

3 - There is very strong correlation that wildtype axies are much hardier compared to other colour variants constitutionally. When housed in the same tank, wildtypes are more resistant to infections, to heat changes and shifts in water parameters. With clinical cases that i see, it is always the other colour variants that end up sick first compared to wildtypes. They are almost like a 'canary' indicator. For some reason, albinos and melanoids seem particularly susceptible. There is still scope for further research in the immunological differences. Wildtypes are just overrrepresented clinically to be more resistant from observation.

4 - When housed above 21 degrees, (not even 22), there is definite signs of pathology at the cellular level for axie tissues. One of the diagnostic methods is to get a bit of gill tissue, stain and observe under the microscope. These tissue changes suggest cellular degeneration. Branchial tissues demonstrate excessive vacuolation, fatty changes, crenation and loss of architecture at elevated temperatures. Outwardly, the axie may fall ill or may do alright. Some become susceptible to fungal infections, some demonstrate behavioural signs like floating and inappetance, others could appear normal and 'shrug' off the pathology. It doesn't mean that the pathology is not there.

5 - The gill fimbriae and skin slime coat are the first areas to be affected at high temperatures. The gill fimbriae are lost resulting in short gills and the protective slime coat can also be diminished, resulting in higher susceptibility to infections. Some axies also start shedding excessively at elevated temperatures. For axies housed in tanks at 22 degrees especially for prolonged periods, it would be extremely rare to find one with nice long healthy gills.

6 - I want to emphasise that at 21-24 degrees, most axies will demonstrate signs of stress and illness. This does not mean it will suddenly keel over and die. It means that there are signs of pathology that could manifest clinically as illness or behavioural changes. Some may just lose body condition. The stress and illness that result will be an onset over a period of time, not a sudden 'heartattack' scenario.

7 - Sudden temperature changes, especially of a drastic nature has direct detrimental effect (even possible thermo shock and sudden death) on the axie. This is regardless of the temperature it changes from. A sudden big temperature change will almost always cause pathology and in some cases instant death.

8 - Axies are cold water amphibians. They are not meant to live in waters of tropical temperature. Although they may be eased into a gradual temperature rise (20-21 for eg) for a short period of time, they cannot acclimatise to live in waters of tropical temperature for long term. Axies kept in tanks of elevated temperatures cannot be at their best.

9 - On these forums, since we are dealing with questions from the general public, it is always safer to err on the side of caution. I strongly feel that advising to keep the axie tank temperature cool and stable around the mid - high teens mark is still always safer than 'pushing' for higher temperature tolerance levels.

WOW, thanks everyone that posted.

This has become a very involved discussion

Ray, I totally understand what angle your coming from. It IS always best to err on the side of caution, there's no sense in risking your axies life.

My tank has gradually week by week, gone up by one degree (it seems) there has been no random spikes of high temps, just a very slow climb, my axies, havent been acting any diffrent than normal. The place I originally got them all, has a very large amount of tropical fish, and the axie tank, had no special cooling device or anything in place, not evern a thermometre to measure the temps.

Im almost certain they've lived their whole lives in out of range temps (14-18). (Kinkyoto, I agree with you there)

I love my Axies I would do anything for them. I feel that i probably have at least 1 or 2 more weeks until high uncontrollable temps will come, SOO im going to bid on a chiller on ebay.

Thank you once again everyone!

Might I also add, that my axolotls gills seem to be fuller, longer and more feathery than ever

(whether or not temperature has anything to do with it?)

Could be that the warm water has less oxygen in it therefore gills grown longer to cope with it . Mel

I thought it is a myth that oxygen levels affect gill length? I also can't agree that temperature affects the length, although I can't disagree either. I've even heard a theory that blue-green algae (cyanobacteria) can be a cause.

-Eva

I'm not sure bout it bein a myth but i have a gold that was kept for quite a while in a tank without a filter or air stone. His gills are massive, this could however be a coincidence. Mel

melfly said:

I'm not sure bout it bein a myth but i have a gold that was kept for quite a while in a tank without a filter or air stone. His gills are massive, this could however be a coincidence. Mel

Click to expand...

Yeah, there have been many discussions here about the subject and I honestly never could find a conclusion among them. I guess if you were to increase the oxygen in Goldy's tank and watch what happens, you could make a reliable comparison.

I need to stop answering now or I'm going to get reprimanded for too many posts on one day!

-Eva