Illness/Sickness: Armless axie still sick!

I'm starting this new thread in continuation of: sick armless axie http://www.caudata.org/forum/f46-be...-sick-axolotl/66125-sick-armless-axolotl.html
because i wasn't getting any responses for a few days and there are new developments!

for one, wilbur's stumps go bright red during salt baths. is that normal?
but more distressingly, wilbur's ex-tankmate leopold died! it seems that it's our fault. his water was a bit acidic, and we forgot to turn the filter back on - it's been not going for at least 4 days and we only realised it when he was dead! and he's been floating and gulping the last few days - i didn't know, my brother just told me, he and his girlfriend were investigating why - but would go back down when poked. oh it's so sad - the poor guy - we weren't sure if he was dead until i felt him and he was awfully squishy. and his body was in a contorted position, curled into the side...
anyway, does this sound like he died from acidity or from no filter? or maybe it was the heat of summer - but he's survived 2 summers already just fine! or might he have had swim bladder disease because of his contorted position?

anyway, when i went to give wilbur his salt bath tonight i got a shock! he looked dead too! he was on his back, back legs curled up sorta, so i touched him, and he didn't react. i took him out for a sec in my arms, and moved him around a little, and my mum and i were almost sure he was dead until finally he started moving weakly! so phew!
but while he'd been unresponsive i noticed what seemed to me to be a continuation of the red/white ring around his neck. we touched it gently with a cotton tip to see if it would come off but we quickly gave that up. i did manage to take a photo of it a few minutes later, but by then he was fighting being turned upside down. but we got a quick photo in - see below. note that in the photo we used the flash and he's actually mostly black - the spots are nearly invisible - and the red/white under his chin/gills is much more obvious.

so tomorrow we were going to stop his salt baths - i didn't do it tonight, worried it might be doing something bad to him.. what should we do? does he need a vet? or another week of salt baths? we really don't want to lose him, after we lost leopold - we'd had him for 2 1/2 years, while we've only had wilbur about a year.

if he needs a vet - please could you tell me some vets in sydney? close to the inner west - i live in dulwich hill. and how best to transport him?

thanks

I am sorry, but I think he needs to see a vet urgently. Keep him cool and dark and as stress free as possible.

The 'stumps' go bright red because the salt in the bath actually stings! I normally tell people to hold off salt baths because open wounds with salt can actually be quite uncomfortable. As a result, more blood flow goes to the stumps and make them look red. In normal circumstances, salt baths will have to wait. However in this case, your axie appears to have severe and chronic fungal and possibly bacterial infection that warrant immediate action.

I still strongly think that your axie has fungal and bacterial stomatitis, that may have become systemic. That means it started out with an infection in the mouth, the axie lost appeite and lost weight and the bacteria/fungus invade deeper into the system.
This condition normally appears and a whitish/reddish discolouration around the mouth and gills.

Continue fridging. The next step requires your vet to provide an injection of antibiotics and supportive therapy (fluids, electrolytes, vitamins and glucose). Here is a link of vets in australia. Herp Vets in Australia

The best way to transport the axie is by putting it in a leak proof esky filled with fresh cool dechlorinated water. Bring along rags and spare bottles of dechlorinated water in case of spills. If you are travelling long distance, best to keep air conditioning on and have someone hold the esky at the front passenger seat. Do not put the axie in the boot and preferably not at the back seat. You want to be able to monitor and also to avoid sloshing the water in the esky too much.

As for your other axie, sorry for your loss. It could be due to a combination of water parameters going off the charts and high temperatures. Axies do not have a swim bladder. Contorted postures are usually a neurological problem or pain. Toxicity as a result of high nitrogenous waste build up can cause this.

thank you or your help. i've booked wilbur in for a vet appointment tomorrow morning so hopefully we'll get some more help there. just hope he survives the journey.

well quite a lot has happened today! we took wilbur to the vet, and when we got there, the vet had to revive him or something because he was nearly dead. then he told us - shock horror - that putting him in the fridge was a bad idea! he said he doesn't understand why people say to do that, it doesn't help, if anything it makes it worse! yes they liked col water - but 15-20degrees celcius, not 5! while we watched, one of his gills broke off! and there was blood! the poor little guy was so lethargic from being in the fridge! and axolotls should have salt in their water all the time! not just salt baths when they're sick. and he said that axolotls often don't show they're sick until they are very sick.
so, he said wiblur is very sick, and we had to choose between putting him down, or giving him some shots and hoping he'll make it, though there would still be a 60-80% cahnce he would die. we chose to try theh shots. and when we got home we set him up in his old tank. so far (it's been around 9 hours) he's survived, though he's bleeding again and we're not sure why, and one of his growing stumps is fungus looking, but he's still kicking, and responsive to touch, which is better that he was in the fridge, so we're all hooping he'll make it. but if he does we still have to take him back next week to get more anti-parasite shots. plus axolotls should be getting at least yearly check ups at vets anyway for deworming and stuff like that.
so, while i appreciate your advice because i doubt you would have meant harm, we have contradicting advice here, and i'm going with the vet. but, i might not have been able to even find his address without your help so thank you.
i am tempted though to answer every active post in this forum saying put in fridge to tell them not to! and i feel so bad for putting poor wilbur through all that!

Darkmaverick is a vet!! And i personally have saved the life of 3 or 4 axolotls using the fridge. I dont think its a good idea to tell people not to fridge axolotls. I have seen many cases on here where axies have been saved just by rayson giving them excellent information. If i needed info he's the man i'd go to. No disrespect to your vet. Mel

I have to agree with what Melfly wrote. Generally fridging an axolotl will slow down their metabolism, de-stress them and allow their body to fight off the infection. What did your vet diagnose as the problem with Wilbur ? Maybe that will give us an insight why your vet advised against the fridging treatment. Also salt baths can only be used for 10 minutes or so as the process, if used longer will cause far more harm ( think of salt water on a cut). I am aware that some salt added to the water is used in aquarium keeping, but not in the quantaties advised for fungus treatment. Please be careful how you advise other owners on their treatment of their axolotl.

Darkmaverick
Veterinarian <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Different vets have different treatment strategies. However i still firmly stick to my advise although there are some common ground i do agree with. I agree that axies are cold water animals and do well at temperature ranges around the teens. I also agree that axies have to be dewormed regularly.

However i disagree that fridging is harmful and i also disagree that the main tank water has to be brackish/saline at all times. Axies do well in moderately hard water, that means there are ions and minerals present that help with osmoregulation. However having sodium chloride (salt) at salt bath concentrations at all times will surely result in the protective slime coat and gills to be damaged. With salt baths, they should not even exceed 15min at max.

Fridging axies has been well researched and published in reputable scientific and veterinary journals. The physiological improvements to immunity, blood circulation and perfusion and reduction in stress levels of cortisol has been well documented.




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pallyndrome said:

well quite a lot has happened today! we took wilbur to the vet, and when we got there, the vet had to revive him or something because he was nearly dead. then he told us - shock horror - that putting him in the fridge was a bad idea! he said he doesn't understand why people say to do that, it doesn't help, if anything it makes it worse! yes they liked col water - but 15-20degrees celcius, not 5! while we watched, one of his gills broke off! and there was blood! the poor little guy was so lethargic from being in the fridge! and axolotls should have salt in their water all the time! not just salt baths when they're sick. and he said that axolotls often don't show they're sick until they are very sick.
so, he said wiblur is very sick, and we had to choose between putting him down, or giving him some shots and hoping he'll make it, though there would still be a 60-80% cahnce he would die. we chose to try theh shots. and when we got home we set him up in his old tank. so far (it's been around 9 hours) he's survived, though he's bleeding again and we're not sure why, and one of his growing stumps is fungus looking, but he's still kicking, and responsive to touch, which is better that he was in the fridge, so we're all hooping he'll make it. but if he does we still have to take him back next week to get more anti-parasite shots. plus axolotls should be getting at least yearly check ups at vets anyway for deworming and stuff like that.
so, while i appreciate your advice because i doubt you would have meant harm, we have contradicting advice here, and i'm going with the vet. but, i might not have been able to even find his address without your help so thank you.
i am tempted though to answer every active post in this forum saying put in fridge to tell them not to! and i feel so bad for putting poor wilbur through all that!

Click to expand...

well i don't know who i'm supposed to believe now. the vet i've met in person who i know actually does treat axolotls, or people i've met over the internet that i have no real way of knowing if they are what they say they are. no offence, that's just what happens with the internet.

anyway, wilbur died today. more of his gills fell off apparently. my brother and his girlfriend already have their eye on another axie, and they're talking to a friend who made their axie big and fat on snails and cicatas.

Hi, i would suggest your brother and his girlfriend read thru the axolotl.org website in full, before purchasing another axolotl. And to make sure you can keep the water cool enough etc. And instead of lookin at making an axolotl fat maybe just try to keep one healthy. Mel

Pallyndrome - that sound like a terrible diet for an axolotl. Blackworms (if you can source them), pellets and best of all earthworms are the optimum diet to keep an axolotl healthy and happy.

By the way, I'm very sorry to hear about the loss of Wilbur.

Hi pallyndrome,

I just wanted to add a reassuring voice to your post. Although there are many years of experience collected here in the forum and the advice you get is tried and true, you are right that we really are just text on a screen, in a way. There is absolutely nothing that can replace an actual, physcial examination by a qualified vet - not to mention the tests that a vet can perform. For that reason, it is actually quite illegal in most countries to give medical advice via the internet.

At the end of the day, you have to go with your gut feeling. It is very important to trust your vet, and if you have a vet you trust, you are a lucky pet owner indeed. Your vet may have different ideas but, as my doctor says, "He who heals, wins the argument."

Please do keep reading here and learning as much as you can. The information gathered here is usually sound. If you have questions again, though, go to your vet to be sure.

I am really sorry that you lost both of your pets. I hope you will see it all as a learning experience and have better luck and understanding for your next axolotl. I'm glad you aren't being put off of them.

-Eva

thank you eva that's very nice what you said.
we got a new axolotl - his name is pickles and he is nice and fat. and we're feeding him live crickets. not that i have the guts to feed that to him, but my brother does.
anyway, hopefully i won't have to put new posts here anymore - hopefully he won't get sick.

He will get sick if you dont feed him a better diet than just crickets, unfortunately. Please read through the forum and axolotl.org so you know how to look after your axolotl and feed it the diet it needs to be healthy and live a long and happy life. Mel

we'll feed him other stuff too. worms and lizards and other live food... and we have pellets and bloodworms too. though we think the frozen bloodworms might have contributed to his illness - since they're so hard to clean up if he doesn't eat them quickly enough and then they rot. oh and the vet suggested we try feeding him whitebait too.

Hi pallyndrome,

You will feed lizards to the axolotl? That's a new one on me. I bet most folks here would rather keep the lizards as pets! haha Seriously though, how do you get lizards as food?

The very best food you can feed your axolotl is earthworms. You could actually feed him exclusively on earthworms and he'd be fine - but how boring, if nothing else. Crickets are ok (I could never reach into the pack and grab one, either, so good for you to have a helpful brother!) as a little snack but don't really have that much nutrition for an axolotl. There are all kinds of things you can find in your garden or buy at pet stores to feed as snacks, and obviously live foods will be more nutritious than frozen. There are some excellent Caudata Culture articles on feeding (here), including some nutritional values.

What's whitebait, is it a freshwater fish?

-Eva

there's lots of lizards around where i live. only as long as your finger, if that, and always sunbathing. they tend to run if your shadow touches them even, so i don't know how my brother intends to catch them.
yes, i'd heard earthworms are good, but i live in an apartment, so we'll have to dig the m out of the scrub behind our unit block - i'm too worried about pesticides to get them from the planted gardens. i think whitebait is little frozen fishes. i'm not sure.
it's my brother's axolotl, so technically it's his responsibility but he's only home half the time so me and mum take turns too. at least the crickets will keep for ages so we won't have to feed them to him all at once.
oh and i would love a (slightly larger than one finger length) lizard but i have no room for more tanks lol. we have 2 4foot tanks, and two smaller tanks for fish plus the axolotl tank in my house so it's getting a bit crowded.

haha There is a special kind of magic brothers seem to exert over wild crawly things. I am sure that if your brother says he can catch lizards, he will.

You know that you can raise worms in a bucket in your apartment, right? Look online for "worm farms" - they are really easy. You feed them with food scraps and they breed readily enough and you have a constant, free supply of worms. You can also use their droppings for houseplants, excellent fertilizer.

-Eva

If your going to use crickets occasionally then make sure they are gut loaded before you feed them to the axolotls.