Consequences for europe if kaiseri are CITES App. I

Happy new(t) year everyone!

I would like to start a seperate discussion for EU citizens as the laws here are heavily influenced by the CITES regulations. To show the importance of Appendix I for us here:

Council Regulation (EC) No 338/97 says:

"Article 8

Provisions relating to the control of commercial activities

1. The purchase, offer to purchase, acquisition for commercial purposes, display to the public for commercial purposes, use for commercial gain and sale, keeping for sale, offering for sale or transporting for sale of specimens of the species listed in Annex A shall be prohibited.

2. Member States may prohibit the holding of specimens, in particular live animals of the species listed in Annex A.

..."

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Where

"...
1. Annex A shall contain:

(a) the species listed in Appendix I to the Convention for which the Member States have not entered a reservation;
..."

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I am really surprised that the EU wants to support this proposal.
As Steffen already said they would only produce bureaucracy.

The situation now is:
- N. kaiseri is bred here by more and more people.
I would estimate the offspring of 2009 to be at least 3000 animals EU wide.
(I know 4 breeders with together around 1000 animals here in germany, there are ads from other people on the internet and you will find them on nearly every reptile fair)

- The prices dropped dramatically from 150 to 50 Euros and will fall down to 20 - 30 Euros in the future.
I know a big wholesaler (mentioned in the proposal) that already stopped importing from Ukraine because CB animals are cheaper and healthier.
In the very near future there will be no more imports - it just doesn't pay off!

- Together with the next offspring I think there will be around 10.000 animals in the EU in 2010.


If the proposal is accepted:

- All these animals would become illegal as they all (as Iran states) have no legal origin and would have to be confiscated.
(Including the ones in the Amphibian Ark project)
They would have to be brought to zoos and other institutions which would care for them.

- These institutions would get a CITES document for every single animal so these animals are legal.

- The private people who have them now will be criminalized and if their animals get confiscated may have to pay a fine or pay for the housing and husbandry of their animals in the institutions. (Thats the way it is here in germany) To avoid this they will let the animals die or give them away to other people not known by the authorities.

- Captive propagation of this species will be stopped or reduced, so the prices will stay high. There will still be an illegal market for the animals and as there are just not enough CBs produced it will stay profitable to smuggle these small newts.



What a listing in CITES would bring:

- paperwork - tons of it!

- thousands of illegal newts in captivity that will sooner or later be flushed down the toilet.

- one wonderful, easy to keep and breed - species less in the pet shops.

- an illegal market where WC animals are still profitable.


So i urge everyone involved in the CITES dicisions NOT to approve this proposal.

It will NOT save any newt in the wild, but kill thousands in captivity!

Illegal collecting for the international pet market can only be stopped by us hobbyists who breed them in masses and satisfy the market for a lower price than the smugglers can.
There are numerous examples that this works. Who would travel to Australia and catch bearded dragons or budgies? Green Iguanas and Ballpythons are bred by the thousands every year. Thats what keeps the pressure away from the wild animals.


What would not be stopped is the consumption of this species in Iran.
From Sharifi et al. (2008):

"There are at least one European company advertising to trade N. kaiseri and also reports of more Iranian pet shops which sale the animal."

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And please keep in mind:
We don't even know how threatend this species really is!
The proposal states:

"There is no estimate available of population size of N. kaiseri in any known of the four streams in southern Zagros Range. ... Evidence based on field observations indicate that this species is rare with a dramatic decline within the previous ten years (Mozafar Sharifi and Theodore Papenfuss pers. comm. September, 2008). The total population is estimated to number fewer than 1,000 mature individuals (Sharifi et al., 2008). But there are currently no exact data available as no scientific researches have been done. "

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The estimated number of less than 1000 adult animals just can't be true! Otherwise the whole population must have been imported many times via Ukraine or these animals were all captive bred.
This number has been published for years - i never read an other one but suddenly there is a decline by 80%?!
And i just can't find the publication they mentioned: (Sharifi et al., 2008)
If this one is meant - there is no estimation in this document.
But i will give you a brief abstract:
They did a field study on N. kaiseri for three days in the end of March 2003, but

"No night-time observation made during this time, therefore,it is not known whether this newt performs a nightly mass migration to its aquatic ground."

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As far as i know the animals have already completed their reproduction phase in March.
They only found 13 adult specimens but don't mention on which distance of the stream, nor in which density, which would have helped making an estimation. They found out that

"Eggs are laid singly or in small clumps on aquatic vegetation or on rocks"

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but don't write how many they found.
Instead the newts were brought to the lab and measured carefully.

I don't know if any scientist ever had the idea of searching them in the first rainy nights in December.
The smugglers did - as far as i know all the imports took place in January.

The whole IUCN rating seems to be based on a conversation with two people.
The mountain streams N. kaiseri lives in are partially subterranean so they are hard to find.
I would rate N. kaiseri DD (Data Deficient)

PLease don't get me wrong, i also want to stop the illegal harvesting but i think thats only possible by breeding them in captivity. The whole demand for this species could be satisfied this way for prices so low, nobody would collect them anymore, regardless how many there are in the wild. A listing in Appendix I would make this impossible in Europe.

gustav said:

And please keep in mind:
We don't even know how threatend this species really is!
The proposal states:


The estimated number of less than 1000 adult animals just can't be true! Otherwise the whole population must have been imported many times via Ukraine or these animals were all captive bred.
This number has been published for years - i never read an other one but suddenly there is a decline by 80%?!
And i just can't find the publication they mentioned: (Sharifi et al., 2008)
If this one is meant - there is no estimation in this document.

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We are talking about a species that occupies an area of about 10km2 that is entirely associated to 4 streams.
Species that inhabit streams can´t be expected to have high densities...Trophic resources in mountain streams and it´s surroundings are limited.
I´d expect the estimation to be rather accurate. Specially since the estimate speaks about adults. Juvenile and sub-adult numbers may be significantly larger.

I am Canadian, not a EU citizen, and I hope my input is still welcome. I have never and should this proposal pass, will never own any N.Kaiseri.

I agree that the passing of this Appendix I cites listing would rapidly undo the work of all those hobbyists out there who have worked so hard at breeding this beautiful newt species. However this should serve as a wake-up call to all of us. Some of us need it more than others. I am strongly against animal smuggling, and I too feel that the illegal trade of these animals will grow, rather than deminish, with their new status.

I am guilty of aquiring WC animals in the past as I am not without my weaknesses. I think what may be lacking is the importance of having CB animals readily available. This particularily applies to the beggining hobbyist. Proper education is the first step to responsible animal husbandry.

The striking beauty of this species and the abilty to fetch high prices are just few of many contributing factors to their current status. Cynops orientalis, usually sells for less than five dollars here, and are almost always available. Sadly, it seems almost all the newt species available here are wild caught even though they could easily be bred. I have just recently been able to access CB newts, but it was indeed a lot of work.(but very worth it)

It is truly sad when something like this happens. It can potentially damage the reputation of hobbyists to the outside eye. People may begin to scapegoat the hobbyists as the problem and not a possible solution.

In any case, this situation has brought to my attention just how fragile the foundations of our hobby can be. If it were not for Caudata.org, I would be oblivious to this information and may have aquired animals illegally, down the road, just due to lack of information. It is good that there are so many people, internationally, intersted in preserving these magnificent creatures. Let your voices be heard.

-Ben

I think sanctifying the hobbyists is a big mistake. Yes, it´s the hobbyists that have made this species available as CB. That is highly commendable!
However, it´s the same hobbyists that bred their kaiseri who at the same time share the blame of contributing to the smuggling and WC market of this species. After all the CB animals we enjoy today come from illegal WC adults. And without people that buy them..there is no market.

So to say that the original breeders are saints is false....they have done A LOT of good...but they have also done bad.

I don't say that they are not endangered or that they should not be protected, just that we don't know much about their numbers. As i said before there were several thousand adults imported over the last years and these people must have found that many animals somehow, somewhere in this rocky area.

Azhael said:

We are talking about a species that occupies an area of about 10km2 that is entirely associated to 4 streams.

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We know they live in at least 4 streams, the last one dicovered 2003 (Sharifi et al., 2008). This stream is about 15km away from the first site they were found. I bet if somebody would do some more research he will find more habitats, but as the proposal says nobody has ever made a serious study.

Azhael said:

Species that inhabit streams can´t be expected to have high densities...Trophic resources in mountain streams and it´s surroundings are limited.
I´d expect the estimation to be rather accurate. Specially since the estimate speaks about adults. Juvenile and sub-adult numbers may be significantly larger.

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In the end it doesn't matter if there are 1000 or 20.000 animals. If you want to stop the harvesting in the wild you have to breed them in captivity. This would be very hard to do in europe if they were Appendix I and the prices would stay high enough to make illegal trade profitable.

I didn't mean to imply that all hobbyist are the saviors of these newts and others. I was trying more to speak generally that RESPONSIBLE hobbyists have helped to reduce the amount of WC animals,and the importance of educating young hobbyists on the importance of avoiding WC specimens.

In many cases, it is really a double edged knife. It would be impossible to possess CB animals without having to capture wild animals. However, at this point should we not have enough CB animals to avoid large scale collecting from the wild? From what I have seen, newts are not hugely popular pets, and other than enthusiasts, people generally are not overly peticular about what species they keep.

If this CITES listing does not pass, it may be worth while to start a breeding program in Iran, where as it may help reduce wild collecting by offering the same product at lower prices and more stable health. I also must admit that however optimistic I may be, there are always people out there that are willing to exploit rare animals for their own gain. That will never change.

I can envision a scenario like axolotls where they are Appendix 2 listed and become EXTREMELY common in the pet trade/hobby to the point where the wild population is unaffected. International trade (outside of E.U.) would be restricted somewhat, but captive animals would still exchange hands freely within countries. The risk of this is that they become so common in captivity that the wild population is virtually neglected by the conservation community until it may be too late (as in the case of the axolotl). Given their reproductive potential and garish coloration, N. kaiseri could quickly become the dominant newt species in the pet trade. Look at how widespread they have become in the past 5 years.

-Tim

For those interested in the subject of the true source of certain "endangered" animals and how CITES is rather easily circumvented, I happen to be reading

The Lizard King: The True Crimes and Passions of the World's Greatest Reptile Smugglers


I was quite surprised by the amount of $$$$ and potential profit involved in the trading and sale of rare animals of all types.

Man! That applies only to specimen taken from the wild! Not cb, they can be marketed even if under certain regulations. There are many CITES App. I species regularly bred and sold everywhere. Don´t paint the world black without reason. Or are you "excited" by the idea of having a strictly protected animal in stock?

Steffen

Hello,

well not so long ago in Poland few new politicians decided that they HAVE to make a list of prohibited to keep animals. On a list were a life threating species - so called venomous animals. Thanks to a massive actions of hobbysts we were able to stop this.

After introduction of such a list a hobbist with a for example venomous snake has two ways to choose from:
1. give his precious animal which he has a wisdom to keep healthy and happy to a goverment
2. do not register as a keeper of such an animal and stay illegal keeper - that's what 99% of keepers declared and that's what stopper this list to be reality.

Situation with newt is a bit different but I see no good coming from this.
And this won't stop dying off of a species. Real danger is devastation of natural habitat which humans are making everywhere. So first step should be setting a strict protection on area where kaiseri lives with huge (and I mean HUGE) money punishment for even an unregistered entry of such area. Cites won't change a situation and we all know this because of so many species of animals in the same situation as this newt.

My two cents .

Regards.