Science Daily N. kaiseri ban

Http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/03/100315103942.htm

Notice their is no mention of C.B. N. kaiseri and the price is really inflated.

I would bet their data is from about 2 years ago when the first few imports started trickling in they sold for a bit less than that(the latest ones for maybe half that price).

The CB kaiseri so far seem to be replacing the WC quite well. But it also seems that demand for the species has gone down, perhaps with all this negative publicity.

I had c.b. N. kaiseri for sale in 2007 and 2008. I produced N. kaiseri in 2008 as many others around the world did. I've never seen N. kaiseri sell for over 180.00 ea,. The price has settled down to about 100.00. I think the data is being selectively presented instead of being analyzed. I quit working with N. kaiseri because of the controversy. I don't want to be stuck holding the bag if they are CITESI listed. Personally I think since their are so many in captivity and they are being bred they should be listed CITESII with no export permits allowed for w.c.

I have to agree with Michael on this one. I feel that further compartmentalization (and attaching more stigma) to the already captive population is counter-productive. I find it disheartening that most the people currently in possession of specimens are especially secretive as the status quo tends to vilify them no matter the source of their original animals. Personally, I will continue to work with the species. Even if it means moving my other species to new homes( so as to not waste successful breedings) just to have the space for the Neurergus kaiseri.

Here is a link to the official CITES Site, showing the Daily Journal reports for the current meeting.

This is the agenda schedule.

Here is the results so far, no mention of the Neurergus kaiseri proposal yet, but this is updated as minutes from the meetings become available.

I see caudata.org is quoted in the proposal. They say that N. kaiseri has only been bred sporadically according to caudata.org
The proposal also mentions that their is no real scientific population information but it appears the populations in the wild are in decline. They go on to say that the main reason for the decline is collection for the pet trade. The proposal goes in a circle a little. If it is approved it will be mostly because of politics and not scientific data.

Agreed. In addition to your comments on the original proposal (with which I wholeheartedly agree) I detect an almost stereotypical anti-western bias to the text.

I actually laughed aloud when I read the part about the "protections" the Iranian government claims to have for the species. I also found it odd how climactic shift/habitat loss are mentioned as causes for concern, yet in the same report they state that the area is sparsely populated and in no danger of habitat destruction by humans.

I certainly agree that this is more politics than good science.

It appears there may not be an issue.

This is excerpted from CITES Committee "Notification to the Parties" Number 2009/051

Proposal 14
Neurergus kaiseri – Inclusion in Appendix I.
Proponent: Islamic Republic of Iran
Provisional assessment by the Secretariat
The proponent proposes to "transfer all populations of the unlisted yet critically endangered salamandrid species Neurergus kaiseri, endemic to four first order streams in highlands of the southern Zagros Mountains in Iran, to Appendix I of CITES", in accordance with criteria A ii), iii) and v), criteria B i), iii) and iv) and criterion C ii) in Annex 1 of Resolution Conf. 9.24 (Rev. CoP14). The Secretariat notes that N. kaiseri is currently not listed in any of CITES Appendices, so it may be included in, but not transferred to, Appendix I.
N. kaiseri is endemic to a restricted area of the Islamic Republic of Iran. The supporting statement gives comprehensive information on the species taxonomy, distribution, habitat and biological characteristics. However, it provides no information on the available habitat, such as estimated length/surface of suitable habitat.
Very little scientific evidence exists on N. kaiseri population structure, its size and trends. The species is naturally rare and its total population is estimated to number fewer than 1,000 mature individuals, which would give it a 'small' population size as defined in Resolution
Notification No. 2009/051 page 17
Conf. 9.24 (Rev. CoP14). It is believed that a majority of individuals is being concentrated geographically during one or more life-history phases. This species uses aquatic habitats mainly for breeding, while spending most of the year in terrestrial habitat. The species may meet the biological criteria A ii) and iii) in Annex 1 of Resolution Conf. 9.24 (Rev. CoP14). Although the wild population has a restricted area of distribution, the supporting statement gives little information about the factor mentioned in subparagraphs i), iii) or iv) of paragraph B in Annex 1 of Resolution Conf. 9.24 (Rev. CoP14), nor is a marked decline in terms of paragraph C of the same Annex described.
The main threats to N. kaiseri are said to be harvesting for national and international trade and the release of fish predators into the habitat of the species.
Very few trade records exist for N. kaiseri. Several sources indicate that this species is being exported to European countries and to Japan in violation of national law. Live specimens are said to be smuggled out of the Islamic Republic of Iran, probably via Azerbaijan, the Russian Federation and Ukraine. Captive breeding of N. kaiseri has rarely been scientifically documented, but captive-bred animals are being offered for sale at much lower prices than the wild-taken specimens.
No management measures for N. kaiseri exist and its habitat is not protected. The proponent provides no information on measures taken to combat illegal trade, including the cooperation with other countries. Nor does it mention if inclusion of this species in Appendix III has been considered.
The genus Neurergus has four species distributed in Iraq, the Islamic Republic of Iran and Turkey. The supporting statement describes all species in the genus Neurergus, but does not adequately address the look-alike issues and identification of N. kaiseri by non-experts.
With regard to paragraph B in Annex 2 a of Resolution Conf. 9.24 (Rev. CoP14), the proponent has not clearly defined how it interpreted and applied Resolution Conf. 9.24 (Rev. CoP14) using sound and relevant scientific information, and recognizing flexibility and data-poor cases as requested at the 58th meeting of the Standing Committee (Geneva, July 2009).

Is this a politically correct smackdown asking for hard facts and their proper application or am I reading too far into this?

Still searching for the reply from Iran, me.


UPDATE: They just posted the "new" version of the proposal online. It can be found here:
http://www.cites.org/eng/cop/15/prop/E-15-Prop-14.pdf

While not out of hot water yet, it will be interesting to see how this all pans out.

N. kaiseri is now CITES I, being passed unanimously today by all nations in attendance. We'll see what USFW does now, and how it interprets the ownership of kaiseri under the Lacey Act.

Aye, just finished reading the results. Now the interesting part of all this starts.

So what will this ruling mean to those of us already keeping and breeding N. kaiseri?

Now there's the million-dollar question! I'll try to answer as best as I can, but before some people clobber me, I'll put out this disclaimer: I'm in no way a CITES/USFW expert, so this is just my understanding based on conversations with folks who know a thing or two about CITES, imports, and USFW.

First and foremost, this closes down all future import of kaiseri to the U.S. It likely wont matter if the kaiseri are listed as captive bred from European stock, etc. unless the European party has paperwork tracing back to Iran. This does not exist, according to Iran.

I believe it also closes all interstate sales/crossing of animals across state lines without federal permits, but may be wrong there. Within-state sales should still be possible.

The biggest question to me is, how closely now will USFW look at kaiseri within the the context of the Lacey Act. Afterall, Iran says no kaiseri have ever been legally exported from Iran for sale/resale. Just because a bunch of animals labeled as "captive-bred" were allowed to be imported from the Ukraine and elswhere the past few years, this does not mean USFW does not have the authority to consider past commerce illegal in light of new information. Animals mistakenly or incorrectly determined by USFW as legal at the time of import do not constitute legal imports. At that point, all that 3-177 really does is prove you weren't necessarily trying to pull a fast one.

It will be interesting!

So, who is a good point of contact @ USFW? I do not need a bunch of Feds busting down my door.

I for one do not plan on sitting around wondering. I plan to start finding answers tomorrow morning.

Darn shame this is, really. They have effectively compartmentalized the species to the point I do not see how any captive propagation of the species will continue. Hobbyists or Professional, from what I have read if one is to believe the Iranians ALL N. kaiseri are illegal.

I'm personally doubting it comes to that sort of extreme, Johnny. There's nothing within CITES that prohibits a country from imposing further restrictions within its borders, but I'm guessing that USFW will strike more of a middle line on domestic enforcement - something along the lines of no interstate sales, but no confiscations for current owners. This would in no way stop people from breeding kaiseri, it would just stop most legal commerce within the trade.

Now if people were simply breeding for profit or potential profit, then this is likely disastrous news for them. But for the average hobbyist breeding kaiseri in their basement, I don't see a huge issue.

But again, it really just depends on how USFW feels it's most strategic to enforce this. They may just sorta give up on trying to enforce the Lacey Act in this regard, hard to say. I do think it says a lot though that USFW backed this listing, because that means they're fully aware and ready for the implications of enforcement if/when it passed.

Just want to add I seriously doubt USFW can find ANY prosecutable culpability with anyone who purchased kaiseri from domestic dealers in the past 5-6 years. Deep breath everyone.

I doubt it will too. (I failed on an attempt at humor once again!)

It is just a frustrating shame. I was really enjoying the prospect of swamping the market here in the States with so many of these critters they would be monetarily worthless. On the other hand, it looks like I will have one heck of a collection of these animals here in the basement.

I think what really saddens me is that very few zoos or institutions have or have any interest in them ( it seems). I would have loved to been able to reply to such organizations with "How many do you want? I'll donate them for free!"

I would very much like to find/speak with the proper authorities on this matter. Once I get some sleep, I may take a day off of work just to chase down hard data.

I didn't see this discussion when I wrote this press release, but it's based on a bunch of questions I asked Nate a few months ago and today's news:

http://www.caudata.org/forum/f1-gen...-receives-full-cites-protection-new-post.html

So this means all interstate transfer will constitute animals given away?

I was(and if it is still legal for hobbyist) still am quite interested in possibly helping increase the number of this species(the particular climate they are adapted to, cold winter temps, and moderately warm terrestrial temps tolerable) seems ideal for my particular house climate.

If CITES I makes these animals monetarily worthless but does not cause them to be unavailable to hobbyists then I would feel this is a good decision and has brought about market saturation quicker than we breeders could do...except that it will severely hamper the ability of hobbyists to exchange bloodlines such as with those in Europe which are likely the most diverse.

Nah. They can still be sold almost anywhere in the U.S. as long as they are c.b. I'm looking to purchase some but if somebody wants to give me some that's cool with me.

So has anyone figured out if CB animals can be traded or sold inside the US, or does it have to be kept inside the state of residence. Or is it just a ban on all sale. Just curious what will happen here.

There is no correct answer to this until USFW issues an advisory notice or rules on someone's kaiseri. The best knowledge we have right now is in this thread and in the press release thread.