No albino parents but albino babies????

If anybody can explain what happened I am entirely confused. I had a wild male 2 wild females and a leusistic female together they decided all at the same time to have eggs. The babies are growing and there is clearly a ton of albinos all white with the gold eyes. How did this happen?

It has to do with their genetics, albinism must have been recessive in one or more of your axies.

Certainly. At least two of your axolotls are heterozygotic for albinism and since it is recessive, heterozygotes do not express it fenotipically.

This is a bit off-topic but i think it´s really sad that we don´t even know the genetics of most axolotls in the market. Heterozygotic "wild" types are being sold as homozygotic "wild" types and that´s just ridiculous...

Azhael said:

Certainly. At least two of your axolotls are heterozygotic for albinism and since it is recessive, heterozygotes do not express it fenotipically.

This is a bit off-topic but i think it´s really sad that we don´t even know the genetics of most axolotls in the market. Heterozygotic "wild" types are being sold as homozygotic "wild" types and that´s just ridiculous...

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This might be a stupid question, but how can you tell the difference?

It is not something that you can see. They carry genes and if it is recessive it means that it does not show in the parents and it takes two parents to carry it for the babies to have it. So if two humans were brown haired but carried a blond recessive gene then the baby could be blond, but if one carried the gene and the other did not then the baby could not be blond. That is just an example and I have no idea if blond hair is recessive. I am pretty sure it is not. By knowing which babies are from which parents you can figure out which colors they carry in their genes.

Someone correct me if I am wrong of course. It has been quite a few years since I learned genetics.

Introduction to genetics explains much better than me:
http://library.thinkquest.org/C004367/be1.shtml

mareofnight said:

So if two humans were brown haired but carried a blond recessive gene then the baby could be blond, but if one carried the gene and the other did not then the baby could not be blond. That is just an example and I have no idea if blond hair is recessive. I am pretty sure it is not.

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Actually it is recessive, you were right (Of cause theres other environmental factors which can affect it also which is why blonde hair can change colour)

I've been a lazy geneticist and not fully delved into axie genetics yet but as already said your wild type axies (the male and at least 1 female) are heterozygotic for the albino gene. In general they follow simple mendelian ratios (you can google them) but for a hetero cross on average a quarter of all the babies from two parents will be albino (a half will also contain the albino gene but appear wildtype, and another quarter will be true wildtypes).

Assuming that the albino gene follows simple mendelian ratios (ie the albino gene isn't linked to other genes which increases/decreases its inheritability) then if you count the albino babies you could work out how many of the females have the albino gene.

If all females have the albino gene then 1/4 of all babies will be albino,
If 2 females have the albino gene then 1/6 of all babies will be albino,
If 1 females has the albino gene then 1/12 of all babies will be albino...

Given you have so many then I'm guessing more than one of your females are albino. Happy counting if you can be bothered! lol

can you post a picture of your little baby's? ^^
curious here XD

Cas said:

Assuming that the albino gene follows simple mendelian ratios (ie the albino gene isn't linked to other genes which increases/decreases its inheritability) then if you count the albino babies you could work out how many of the females have the albino gene.

If all females have the albino gene then 1/4 of all babies will be albino,
If 2 females have the albino gene then 1/6 of all babies will be albino,
If 1 females has the albino gene then 1/12 of all babies will be albino...

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The male must also be heterozygous albino for this to occur, of course.

Azhael said:

This is a bit off-topic but i think it´s really sad that we don´t even know the genetics of most axolotls in the market. Heterozygotic "wild" types are being sold as homozygotic "wild" types and that´s just ridiculous...

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I think most axolotls are sold for the phenotypic expression of their underlying genotype. The only way that anyone can know for sure what the genotype (what genes the animal carries) their animals are is to know without a doubt what the previous three or four generations of animals were and even then some animals would leave you guessing (or assuming). I don't know of anyone who actually has this much data collected on the animals in their care.

Besides, it's kinda fun to see what "pops up" in a given cross. I am currently getting eggs from a melanoid male and leucistic females. Lots of possibilities here.

That´s true, the way to know is to have data on their genealogy, which most people don´t have and i don´t think it´s something incredibly complicated to have. If we had that sort of information, if we made a small effort in knowing what the genetics of our "color morphs" are, i think it would be very benefitial. Yes, in the current situation you have an element of surprise, of not knowing what your animals will produce. That´s both exciting and horribly scary if you ask me. There are problems associated with certain bloodlines, lethal genes, etc, over which we have no control whatsoever because we have no control over the genealogy of axolotls in captivity. We have genes that are not axolotl genes, but A.tigrinum/mavortium genes that were introduced by hybridation to achieve golden albino axolotls (not true axolotls...hybrids!). Because of the lack of knowledge and the free far all kind of breeding system that has been used with this species for decades, those genes are now part of axolotls that are not golden albino, and we don´t even realize.

I´m sorry to hijack the thread, but i think this is a very important matter. When we breed a species for colors, when we artificially select it and we apply tremendous endogamy and we hybridize with other species, knowing what the genetics of each individual are is the absolute minimum!!! We need to wake up and realize that things have been done very wrong for a long time. We pay a tiny price which is lack of knowledge on what we have, but the animals pay big prices like carrying lethal genes, losing their genetic integrity, HUGE endogamy.....etc. Not fair at all...not for them and not for us.

I agree Azhael.

I have no idea of the genetics of my axolotls, and that makes not a scrap of difference to how much I love my little guys, but it does sadden me to think that they are getting so far removed from the axolotls at the bottom of Lake Xochimilco, or what's left of them cause we can't take care of our environment.

This is what humans do. *sigh*

mewsie said:

or what's left of them cause we can't take care of our environment.

This is what humans do. *sigh*

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Be the difference! Some day environmentalism will be cooler than **** like Jersey Shore. I just hope it's not too late.

That´s the thing! You can have your lovely adorable axies, you can have color morphs, you can have all the same you have now but with healthier animals!!! If we kept control over the genetics (which again, is the least we should do considering that we are playing with those genetics) and promoted responsible breeding we would have healthier animals. There would be less endogamy which would mean less prevalence of recessive traits (not talking about colors here, i´m talking about things like lethal genes), less genetic depression, more genetic variability in our captive populations (which one day could safe them from a particular patogen), etc. And you can still have color morphs, bred responsibly. They still won´t be "ideal" since any recessive trait will require some degree of endogamy, but we would be miles from where we are now (and we are not in a good place).

Information is key, and knowing where our animals come from is essential for responsible breeding. We keep breeding with close relatives (both knowingly and unwittingly) under the idea that endogamy is almost inexistent in caudates and that´s not true (it just takes more generations to be a grave problem than in other animal groups). If we avoided endogamy, everyones axolotls would be healthier, more fertile, more longlived...If we avoided "unknown" animals, we would still have 100% nominal axolotls (genetically consistent with wild populations) which i dare say we probably don´t have any more...
There are certain mistakes that are easy to avoid and we would ALL benefit from it.

Again, sorry, once the valve is open there´s no shutting me..xD

Azhael said:

Again, sorry, once the valve is open there´s no shutting me..xD

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Haha, quite right too!

For the average person, Azhael, what is the best way to start to make a difference, and ensure we are getting good, strong, healthy genetics?

I certainly know that if I had 'choice' when I was buying mine - I'd have bought 'known' animals - my family run a rare breeds farm, it's important! But I had to phone countless stores just to find axolotls at all, and although he could tell me they were from 'the Czech Republic' that was all the info I got.

So how DO we start making a change when you are often choosing from none, little, or incorrect information? Is this too far gone (a horrible thought)?

Well, i´m a bit of a pessimist but i don´t think i´m exagerating when i think that the situation with axolotls is already really bad. I don´t think it´s possible to undo the damage, not completely. We´ll never go back to the original. However we can take steps . For example avoiding endogamy inside our own breeding groups should be the first and foremost step. How can we expect future generation to be healthy if we breed with brothers and sisters??? It´s just obvious that that doesn´t work at all. I don´t think we have certifiable "pure" bloodlines of axolotls in the hobby anymore, which is a great loss in terms of producing healthy offspring (among other things). So we have to work with what we have. Avoid endogamy, exchange animals with other local keepers, eliminate obvious aberrants (ok, if you want colors, i can accept that as far as they don´t affect the animals health, but other aberrants really have no place in the hobby), eliminate weak animals or at least don´t use them for breeding. All those are different steps that we all can take to limit the effects of domestication and artifitial selection in our animals. I don´t think we can aim for perfection, perfection to me is a natural system where natural selection takes place. But we can try to control the amount of artifitial selection we apply to our animals, and that´s benefitial for them (and for us since we have better quality animals). Something as obvious and silly as not breeding with close relatives, reports benefits and keeps many problems under control, and we don´t even do that... Even our ancestors knew that endogamy was not good for their cattle, or for themselves...and we can´t even do that right


I forgot to add another step which i think is particularly important. Information. If you don´t have information on your axolotl´s lineage, you can at least keep track of their genealogy under your care. Not just what year the larvae were born in (which seems to be as far as we go most of the time) but also who were their parents or what kind if breeding group they originate from. That way, the next person who receives axolotls from you will know what he/she is getting from you, and will know that either all your axolotls are related or that they aren´t (if you have two or more separate unrelated breeding groups) so in the future he/she should find another source or not. Every little detail helps, because if you know what you have and where it came from, then you can act accordingly. I really think we need to start being more demanding in terms of information not only from comercial breeders but from ourselves too. The information is rarely given because it is rarely requested. That should change.

Azhael said:

..If we avoided "unknown" animals, we would still have 100% nominal axolotls (genetically consistent with wild populations) which i dare say we probably don´t have any more...

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It would be impossible to keep axolotls consistent with wild populations after a couple of generations unless you consistently mated captive axolotls with wildype axolotls (and the rare colour morphs which are popular will be almost non existent). Just by only breeding animals with known genetics for colour morphs you still are placing selection on a population which will be different and hence separate the captive population from wild.

It's important to remember we are only talking about a handful of genes and the simple act of picking an axolotl because it's the cutest looking one (regardless of colour morph), the most friendly one, the biggest one (We all have our reasons! ) that also selects for genes later if we choose to breed it.

I would even go as far to suggest that if wildtype axolotls were re-introduced to the captive population (by random selection) the cute, friendly, relatively non-agressive to other tank mates, and the lovely personable behaviour we all love would start to disappear as all breeding up to this point has selected for friendly pets. Ie. the one that ignores you and bites when you go near it is less likely to be given a female/male tank mate so it can breed. But the one which is friendly, walks over to say hi is more likely to be given an opp. sex tank mate to breed.

I think genetics is important to breeding, but the goal of that aim has to be achievable and take into consideration that people like the rarer colour morphs which would place strain on the market if they were to reduce in numbers available.

PS. Sorry Dick Willis I only mentioned it once as it had already been said by someone else, didn't want to repeat their wise words

I agree in the case of the axolotl, that maintaining the captive populations at a pace which is in syncrony with wild ones is impossible. I also accept that the axolotls are part of a market that aims for coloration and market value over anything else. That doesn´t mean that all goes. The health of the animals should be the most important aspect, and it´s not the case. If we still had bloodlines consistent of homozygotic (or almost) axolotls, the "phase market" would still exist, and those of us interested in the real thing would be able of acquiring an animal that satisfied our needs.

Any captive population is isolated to some degree from the wild ones (a phenomenon that can be slowed and limited by the proper means), in the case of axolotls the link has been severed entirely. That´s sad...but such is life. We need to breed more inteligently what we have, because that´s all there is. The captive breeding of a species shouldn´t represent a process that without exception drives the aptive populations to utter and absolute domestication where the original characteristics of the species are nowhere to be found.

Most of the lethal genes and weak genes have been selectively bred for to use for research purposes. Lethal genes rarely show up in hobbyists animals. Most of the axolotls kept as pets are very healthy and don't show any inbred depression. For hobbyists axolotls are most often sold by phenotype and not genotype.

What would you base the homozygotic bloodlines on though? If you choose colour morph then your actually only making things worse if you breed selectively from say 50 animals. By selecting at all through "pure homozygotic bloodlines" you could potentially be increasing the chances of lethal and unfavourable genes that you don't know about underlying the colour of the animal.

If you want to increase the health of a population then increasing the heterogeneity across the population will do this (Hybrid Vigour), however as I said before this will be at odds with what the market wants most likely. A population which displays increased homozygosity is generally considered to display inbreeding. If you wish to base breeding on genetics then you need to look at many characteristics (genes) not just one or two.

This is a huge problem for zoo's as well they have really elaborate breeding programs which span continents so that they do not unconsciously selective for genes. I think its too late to worry about pet axololts in general they are healthy and thats what matters, I doubt anyone is going to set up a "know the genome of your pet" so through trail and error with mating is likely to be the only way to know in the near future. If someone was trying to start up a breeding program for release into wild populations then this would become of higher importance and something in the forefront of everyones minds.

I set out last autumn with the goal of establishing a colony of axolotls, and I've been paying a lot of attention to genetic diversity. I've been buying eggs from various individuals on Ebay and raising the larvae that hatch, trying to get as wide a sample of genes as my time and resources allow, and I now have approximately 30 juveniles, 10 larvae and 24 eggs, from 7 different breeding pairs with a gene-pool that includes wild-type, leucistic, albino, golden albino, melanoid and possibly axanthic colour morphs in various states of expression, recession, hetero- and homo-zygocity.

I'm not aiming to preserve the axolotls in their wild state; I'm quite happy to have colourful and tame axolotls as long as they're healthy, and I have a fair idea of how I'm going to go about breeding colourful, tame and healthy axolotls.