Urgent!

Bunny · Aug 3, 2011

Hi everyone, I am new to the forums but I really only signed up last night to ask a few questions so I'll get to making an introduction thread later.

Also, my apologies, I know these sort of symptoms have probably been mentioned elsewhere but I don't want to seive through mountains of threads to get the information I want.

Background/Additional Information:

I am pretty sure I have an axolotl

I have no idea how old he is (I assume it's a "he"), but I have had him for five years and in that time he has grown quite a bit (so maybe he was only a year or two old to begin with?).

Ordinarily he lives in a tank by himself with ~40L of water (I am told that's the bear minimum you should have) and a filter that I've changed to the lowest force as I believe our previous filters were all too high and were causing him stress. It should be mentioned that a few weeks ago I noticed lime scale developing (which I understand is due to the "hardness" of water) so we emptied the tank, rinsed it out and scrubbed it with lemon juice and vinegar, then rinsed it again thoroughly to get rid of the residue.

We feed him beef heart every second day (he's rarely hungry on consecutive days, particularly in winter), and he does have the odd bout of lack of appetite for a while and then it returns to normal. Also, he's gone without food for at least one week when we went on holidays and survived. We've tried worms before but he doesn't seem interested in them and I don't want to leave them swimming around in his tank (I want to limit the potential for him aspirating the pebbles, as well).

Right now, if those stick-on magnetic thermometer things are accurate, the temp is 21 degrees Celsius. Changes in the temperature have rarely warranted the below behaviours from our axolotl (in the Australian summer his tank can get pretty hot).

Problems/Symptoms:

I'm not sure how long ago, but he started to float near the surface and gulp air much more frequently. Then he lost his appetite (I'm not sure how long he hasn't eaten for, but he's been able to go without food for a week so I'm not terribly concerned about that). Yesterday I noticed him floating at the surface very still so I poked him and for a second he did nothing (he usually swims away in a panic if you do that), then he swam away very slowly. So, he's become very lethargic, probably from swimming to the surface a lot for many days now (maybe even a week). On closer inspection, after poking him, I noticed that his gills had shrunk... the third one on both sides has receded so much it's basically just a stump now.

Thoughts/Assessments/Interventions:

I read that these could be symptoms of illness, although I see no evidence of it (no fluffy white stuff on his gills or sores anywhere along his body). Oxygen shouldn't be a problem. Perhaps he has a tummy bug and he's floating due to gas? I dunno. I'm worried that he's either undergoing metamorphosis naturally (I know that is extremely rare), or the water condition in my tank is inhospitable and forcing him to (which, I am in no way attempting to induce on purpose).

Any time I check the pH of the water it's always slightly acidic (about 6.0) but it never seems to do him any harm. I increased the pH anyway, and added the remainder of this solution that adds "good bacteria" to the water. I did, however, run out of something that dechlorinated the water so I haven't added that since I last changed the water (a few weeks ago). His tank is clean- it always is for some reason- no reoccurrence of lime scale (which I'm told is harmless to them anyway)...

I've since lowered the water in his tank so that the top of his treasure chest pokes out of the water if he wants to climb on it to get air and I'm going to the pet shop tonight to buy the stuff I need to dechlorinate the water, add good bacteria, etc. and ask the attendant what they think (but I thought I'd ask here since I don't really expect a regular pet shop attendant to know this much depth about just one animal that they sell. Do ordinary vets even know a lot about fish and amphibians?? I naturally assumed that wasn't an option either...).

Questions:

Are there antibiotics or antifungals or whatever for axolotls at pet stores? Any harm in giving him some of that to see if it works?

How would I know if it's ammonia related and how would I go about correcting that if it was due to high ammonia?

How long does metamorphosis take to happen? I read somewhere it only took four days for one axolotl and I think mine's been "sick" for longer than that.

When should you start preparing the tank for the transition? I suspect if you lower the water and stick a big rock in there blocking half of his running-around-room then he may get stressed-- especially if he's not 'morphing!

Is this just part of a process where my axolotl is dying? Although I don't know why his gills would shrink first...

Thank you all very much for reading and replying to this thread (if you did)!

stevstev · Aug 3, 2011

I don't know too much as i'm relatively new to Axolotls myself, but i've read some things that suggest that beef heart is not good as a staple diet, as it's too fatty and so on. Not varied enough and it should probably just be used as a treat. He needs to get onto earthworms as soon as possible.

Also pebbles, as i've recently found out myself, are a massive no no! Likely-hood is that your axy could have ingested some without you knowing. Mine recently has and i'm very concerned and i hastily changed the substrate to sand. It's very easy for them to do, and a real problem. Change the substrate to sand as soon as possible. Ingested pebbles/gravel and so on seems to more common than we'd think and it can have a very poor effect on the little one and it's quite possible that they could be causing the stress.

Have you tried fridging the axolotl at all?

Axolotl Sanctuary

A guide there of how to do it ^^^

....and here's some reasons why it's a very good idea:

http://www.caudata.org/forum/f46-be...-all/62941-why-do-people-fridge-axolotls.html

I personally don't think it's preparing for metamorphosis. This is an extreme circumstance i'm led to believe (as you said) that normally occurs if they're threatened in their environment and feel that the water is lowering sufficiently that they may need to adapt to land? Don't quote me on that!

FRANCOIS · Aug 3, 2011

The PH seems quite low! I am no axolotl expert but in my opinion that is way low.

FRANCOIS · Aug 3, 2011

stevstev said:
I don't know too much as i'm relatively new to Axolotls myself, but i've read some things that suggest that beef heart is not good as a staple diet, as it's too fatty and so on. Not varied enough and it should probably just be used as a treat. He needs to get onto earthworms as soon as possible.

Also pebbles, as i've recently found out myself, are a massive no no! Likely-hood is that your axy could have ingested some without you knowing. Mine recently has and i'm very concerned and i hastily changed the substrate to sand. It's very easy for them to do, and a real problem. Change the substrate to sand as soon as possible. Ingested pebbles/gravel and so on seems to more common than we'd think and it can have a very poor effect on the little one and it's quite possible that they could be causing the stress.

Have you tried fridging the axolotl at all?

Axolotl Sanctuary

A guide there of how to do it ^^^

....and here's some reasons why it's a very good idea:

http://www.caudata.org/forum/f46-be...-all/62941-why-do-people-fridge-axolotls.html

I personally don't think it's preparing for metamorphosis. This is an extreme circumstance i'm led to believe (as you said) that normally occurs if they're threatened in their environment and feel that the water is lowering sufficiently that they may need to adapt to land? Don't quote me on that!

I think you are very right, I would fridge him asap, he seems quite sick!

Bunny · Aug 3, 2011

stevstev said:
I don't know too much as i'm relatively new to Axolotls myself, but i've read some things that suggest that beef heart is not good as a staple diet, as it's too fatty and so on. Not varied enough and it should probably just be used as a treat. He needs to get onto earthworms as soon as possible.

Also pebbles, as i've recently found out myself, are a massive no no! Likely-hood is that your axy could have ingested some without you knowing. Mine recently has and i'm very concerned and i hastily changed the substrate to sand. It's very easy for them to do, and a real problem. Change the substrate to sand as soon as possible. Ingested pebbles/gravel and so on seems to more common than we'd think and it can have a very poor effect on the little one and it's quite possible that they could be causing the stress.

As I said in my post, we've tried to feed him worms before but he wasn't interested. The pet shop we bought him from had already been feeding him beef heart so he was used to it.

I do not believe he has aspirated a stone/bebble. I feed him by-hand, I never put things in his tank and leave them there un-attended as that would increase the risk of aspiration. He has no reason to open his mouth underwater that way, so therefore the chance of him aspirating anything is extremely low. Allowing worms to swim around in his tank until he can get them would significantly increase this risk, which is the second reason I don't want to feed him worms.

Also, they can aspirate sand.

stevstev said:
Have you tried fridging the axolotl at all?

Axolotl Sanctuary

A guide there of how to do it ^^^

I have not, and I would rather not have to. I'm not even sure there is any indication that is necessary at this point and the move could cause him more stress.

stevstev said:
I personally don't think it's preparing for metamorphosis. This is an extreme circumstance i'm led to believe (as you said) that normally occurs if they're threatened in their environment and feel that the water is lowering sufficiently that they may need to adapt to land? Don't quote me on that!

I used to believe that lowering the water periodically would induce metamorphosis but have learnt from several reputible sources this is a myth, and if attempted your axoltol would probably die (as not all are even capable of metamorphosis, regardless).

FRANCOIS said:
The PH seems quite low! I am no axolotl expert but in my opinion that is way low.

Why do you say that? What is the normal range for housing an axolotl? I read that it was supposed to be within the neutral range (i.e. between 6.5 to 8.0). FYI a pH of neutral is 7. Anything less than 7 is "more acidic" and anything above it is "more alkaline/base". pH is on a range of 0-14 so I would not consider a pH of 6.0 to be "too low" at all. Also, I stated in my post that I have already increased the pH to neutral.

stevstev · Aug 3, 2011

Well that was a very defensive post. I wasn't having a go. Just trying to offer some advice because I care about your axolotl

Regarding the diet - just because an obese child is used to eating pizza all of the time it doesn't mean you shouldn't try and feed him vegetables does it?

I really think you should try and change his diet. There is no way he would be able to resist the wriggling of a worm when hunger kicked in eventually and a continued poor diet will lead to lethargy and general disinterest

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree regarding the pebbles - I think the reasoning that 'he has no reason to open his mouth that way' is a little naive. They are greedy creatures and they'll eat anything they can fit in their mouths. It only takes a brisk swim to disturb a pebble, in which he'd notice movement, and snap at it and before you know it he's swallowed one whole. It's a low risk, yes, but it's a risk nonetheless and very possible. He can eat sand, yes - but fine sand is completely harmless to them. It passes through with ease and does no damage. Pebbles don't....this forum only suggests sand as substrate, and they're quite right to!

If you're not willing to consider fridging at least consider putting a frozen water bottle in his tank to cool the water down. Cooling the water down and giving them a dark environment is completely essential for axolotls showing signs of stress. It relaxes them, de-stresses them and lets them recuperate in a perfect environment, and the shrinking of the gills is surely a sign of stress/illness if there ever was one. Is his tail curled too? Another sure-fire sign.

Is he in a loud environment at all? Does he have places to hide etc and is there any harsh lighting?

FRANCOIS · Aug 3, 2011

stevstev said:
Well that was a very defensive post. I wasn't having a go. Just trying to offer some advice because I care about your axolotl

Indeed! And you wonder? Why even try? This animal is not well at all, for a reason....
Listen to Stevstev, save your animal instead of taking our advise as a ctitic!

carsona246 · Aug 3, 2011

ok, so you said you scrubbed your tank with lemon juice, was that actually lemon juice, or lemon scented cleaner? Also you said you raised the ph, how did you go about doing this? Messing with the ph is usually not something you want to do unless you know what your doing. I happen to have soft water here, and my ph is usually pretty low, I don't think that's the problem. But 6 is considered quite low
Regarding the pebbles, tons of people come here asking what to do once their axolotls have swallowed a pebble. Just browse the sick axolotls section and your bound to run across a case where someone thought there was no way their axolotl would have any reason to swallow a pebble, yet their axolotl did.
Floating is a sign of impaction, which is why everyone is suggesting fridging him. Fridging your axolotl lowers their metabolism, and tends to help loosen anything stuck in them.
Edit: just look below this thread there's a thread about an axolotl eating a stone

FRANCOIS · Aug 3, 2011

When you fridge you buy time to find a possible way to save your axolotl....
To change the PH is not like you povide oxygen to passengers in a jetliner that lost cabin pressure.... a low PH, and I believe it is, has long term effects... and the low PH says it all about the set up conditions.
Fridge in clean water, remove chlorine, chloramine and heavy metals.... then you can think and you BUY TIME!

Bunny · Aug 3, 2011

stevstev said:
Well that was a very defensive post. I wasn't having a go. Just trying to offer some advice because I care about your axolotl

I know you weren't having a go, and neither was I. I do have a habit of being straight-to-the-point and direct though, so I'm not always going to end everything I say with a smiley face; a "thank you for posting" (hence I said a general thank you in my opening post); or say "hmmm, that could be it, thank you!" if I really don't think it is.

stevstev said:
Regarding the diet - just because an obese child is used to eating pizza all of the time it doesn't mean you shouldn't try and feed him vegetables does it? I really think you should try and change his diet. There is no way he would be able to resist the wriggling of a worm when hunger kicked in eventually and a continued poor diet will lead to lethargy and general disinterest

As I stated in my opening post, I have owned this axolotl and fed him beef heart for five years and he has never shown disinterest or lethargy. I do not think the change in diet would be that substantial, and I definitely do not think it would be worth the hassle or the increased risk of aspiration.

stevstev said:
I'm going to have to respectfully disagree regarding the pebbles - I think the reasoning that 'he has no reason to open his mouth that way' is a little naive. They are greedy creatures and they'll eat anything they can fit in their mouths. It only takes a brisk swim to disturb a pebble, in which he'd notice movement, and snap at it and before you know it he's swallowed one whole. It's a low risk, yes, but it's a risk nonetheless and very possible. He can eat sand, yes - but fine sand is completely harmless to them. It passes through with ease and does no damage. Pebbles don't....this forum only suggests sand as substrate, and they're quite right to!

Although I do not disagree with you, I do maintain my position. Never in the five years that I have owned this creature has he opened his mouth underwater unless I was holding beef heart in front of his nose. Nor have I seen the gravel or pebbles been uplifted by his movement (moved, yes, but not uplifted to the point he might think it was food). Regardless, I do not think this is the cause for his current behaviour.

Furthermore, a little sand may not be deadly, but if he continues to aspirate the sand it will simply build up. Unlike you, though, I am not trying to convince you to change your substrate- I believe it is up to you to decide, based on your knowledge and your experience with your unique axolotl. So please stop trying to change mine (I'm not entirely a n00b, I was aware of these issues before you posted and I made my choice after careful research and weighing the pros and cons).

stevstev said:
If you're not willing to consider fridging at least consider putting a frozen water bottle in his tank to cool the water down. Cooling the water down and giving them a dark environment is completely essential for axolotls showing signs of stress. It relaxes them, de-stresses them and lets them recuperate in a perfect environment, and the shrinking of the gills is surely a sign of stress/illness if there ever was one. Is his tail curled too? Another sure-fire sign.

I read that a tempertaure of 21 degrees Celsius was in no way "too high", and thus see no reason to implement strategies to cool the water (especially since it has been higher before with no ill-effects, it would be awfully strange for it to start happening now).

stevstev said:
Is he in a loud environment at all? Does he have places to hide etc and is there any harsh lighting?

No, yes, and no.

iChris · Aug 3, 2011

can we get some pics of your setup and axie?

I suspect, going from shrinking gills and gulping, it's probably a water quality issue.

as for the pebble/gravel issue, keep in mind that the axolotl occurs naturally in a very exclusive habitat - the dark bottom of 2 mexican lakes, 1 of which is now gone and the other being destroyed fast. the substrate that lake beds consist of (well, what comes to my mind anyway) is sand. you're more likely to find gravel and pebbles in a fast moving stream or river.

carsona246 · Aug 4, 2011

how is there a weighing of pro's and con's about rocks in an axolotl's tank? It's common knowledge if you browse the forums that all axolotls will somehow wind up with stones in their belly if it is big enough to fit in their mouth. No one is trying to change your mind about the substrate, just informing you that your substrate is less than ideal, just like the diet. No one can make you change your axolotl's diet or substrate, but we can point out that beef heart is a poor diet(for any aquatic animal, it's not even recommended for carnivorous fish as a staple) and that earthworms are a much better diet for your axolotl.
Why ask for advice if you're not even going to consider the suggestions? Just search through the threads about substrate, diet, and floating and you'll see these are all common suggestions
Another thing, I didn't realize you didn't test your water. You should go out and buy an ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate test kit. If we have these parameters we can accurately tell you if it's ammonia related(it might be). Cleaning out the tank might have killed off your cycle, and if it is ammonia related. Did you clean out the filter at the same time?

Bunny · Aug 4, 2011

carsona246 said:
ok, so you said you scrubbed your tank with lemon juice, was that actually lemon juice, or lemon scented cleaner?

It was actual lemon juice from an actual lemon, and straight vinegar (which is more lethal than lemon juice, or so I read when I was researching non-toxic was to clean lime scale). I tried to be careful to ensure I rinsed the tank thoroughly, but I cannot help but wonder. However, that was several weeks ago, so if it was due to either of those things... why now?

carsona246 said:
Also you said you raised the ph, how did you go about doing this? Messing with the ph is usually not something you want to do unless you know what your doing. I happen to have soft water here, and my ph is usually pretty low, I don't think that's the problem. But 6 is considered quite low

I have a pH testing kit for aquariums and with it came two bottles and instructions on how to change the pH (based on the amount of water to be changed and how much you want to change it by). Do you have any evidence from reputible sites that says 6.0 is so low as to be this damaging? As I said, I've tested it before and got the same result, however my axolotl was completely fine and happy. (I'm not questioning your knowledge, I just want to make sure if I do anything that it has a sound basis in science and there is good evidence to back it up.)

carsona246 said:
Regarding the pebbles, tons of people come here asking what to do once their axolotls have swallowed a pebble. Just browse the sick axolotls section and your bound to run across a case where someone thought there was no way their axolotl would have any reason to swallow a pebble, yet their axolotl did.
Floating is a sign of impaction, which is why everyone is suggesting fridging him. Fridging your axolotl lowers their metabolism, and tends to help loosen anything stuck in them.
Edit: just look below this thread there's a thread about an axolotl eating a stone

I really do not believe this is the case, but thank you anyway.

FRANCOIS said:
Indeed! And you wonder? Why even try? This animal is not well at all, for a reason....
Listen to Stevstev, save your animal instead of taking our advise as a ctitic!

That is my point, Francois, I am looking after a possibly sick axolotl so I want to be as objective, scientific, accurate and effective as possible. My heightened stress level is probably why I am taking this thread especially seriously- I am very worried about him. I am looking for a solution to a problem, not pointers on how I should or should not look after my pet.

FRANCOIS said:
When you fridge you buy time to find a possible way to save your axolotl....

This assumes a lot of things and thus is not what I consider "scientific". If the problem is the water then I cannot put him in a smaller container of said water and in the fridge, but nor is it safe for me to put him into something with tap water that hasn't been conditioned (I stated in my opening post I have to buy more stuff to dechlorinate the water tonight). The "fridge" idea is supposedly based on the temperature, which I do not believe is the problem. I am also worried about the stress of picking him up, putting him in a small enclosure and stuffing him in the fridge with no light at all and limited circulating oxygen...

carsona246 · Aug 4, 2011

It's common knowledge in the fish keeping hobby that a ph of 6 is low, you don't want it to go any lower than 6. I'm sure that's the lowest your test kit actually reads. Don't change the ph using chemicals. If you want to raise the ph safetly use crushed coral by adding a small amount at a time(I add less than a handful to my 40 breeder) to your tank and measuring the ph after 12 hours to see how much it raises the ph. Using chemicals like ph up or down to change your ph will cause your ph to fluctuate quickly, which can stress your axolotl, not saying this is related to your axolotl floating, but just in case you were going to mess with your ph.

theJATM · Aug 4, 2011

i know what hes going through. i joined the forums... 3 or 4 weeks ago, and ive already made 2 threads about sick axolotls. one died, and one is currently acting funny. i dont want people to think im a bad, misinformed owner. but at the end of the day, i wanna be an informed and good owner.

im sorry i cant help in this particular thread. but bunny is clearly stressed and figuring out the cause quickly is important.

bunny, is there any way to upload a picture for us?

FRANCOIS · Aug 4, 2011

I seriously do not mean to be "rude" but if you know it all, why ask for help? This is not about you, it's about your pet!

Bunny · Aug 4, 2011

I won't be responding to anymore posts regarding diet and substrate, if that becomes an issue for any users here, or you think that I am being "defensive" then 1) too bad 2) I am not (intentionally) and 3) I will just stop posting and leave (this is not a threat, it is more like a reassurance-- I will be out of your way, so don't get into a huff about it).

carsona246 said:
Another thing, I didn't realize you didn't test your water. You should go out and buy an ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate test kit.

Thank you, this is an example of a good suggestion to a problem, as I am not looking for "general advice".

I will purchase one tonight, if I can find one.

blackdog · Aug 4, 2011

I'll chime in, and i don't care if you do think i'm having a go, 'cos i probably am.

Your axie is not well, so you come to a forum to ask a question, then you get all defensive about the answers - ok, so why ask if you already know all the answers?

Ok, i've had a crack & got that off my chest, now i'll try to try to help

Firstly -

* it could be very useful to you to use the search function TONS of info on what you need to know.

* Have a look at Axolotls: The Fascinating Mexican Axolotl and the Tiger Salamander - also TONS of care info and set up

Secondly -

* Beef heart is not a good staple diet for axies, some say it's ok for a treat, i dont agree at all, but whatever. My kids love chocolate, but they dont get to eat it for every meal, but i let them have it for a treat. Your pet shop is wrong. You can take the advice of a generalist who maybe doesnt know so much about axies, or take the advice of people who specialise and know a lot about axies - your choice

* Pebbles are absolutley out of the question. An axie will open his mouth under water whether he 'has a reason " or not, they yawn, snap at movment all sorts of weird things. In fact, based on the symptoms you describe , i'm pretty sure he has swallowed gravel. You may well have been lucky for 5 years of not swallowing gravel, but if you have gravel in a tank, it's only a matter of time until ingestion occusrs, as i suspect you have now found out.

* They can swallow sand, but they pass it no problems.If you dont want sand, go bare tank, either way get rid of the stones

* If you cant see a fungus, then i dont think its a fungus

* I dont think it is morphing either

* Your recent tank clean up may have crashed the cycle. poor water or Ammonia build up can cause gill shrinkage, floating , distress etc . Test your water for ammonia, nitrates, nitrites to find out - Search the forum for info on the nitrogen cycle if you need assistance with it.

* Fiddling with the ph can start an up and down cycle that is worse for the axie than steady hi or low conditions. 6 is low for sure, but if it's alwasy been 6 then it may be used to it. Changing it to 7 suddenly may have shocked it a little, and if you have tried to adjust the ph of a small amount of water, you may find it is spiking up and down wildly

In summary -

* I think your water quality may be the main issue - your tank clean up to get rid of scale may have crashed the cycle, changed the water ph & gh enough to be distressing. If you are trying to tweak the ph of a small amount of water it may be going up and down, also distressing

* I also suspect gravel ingestion.

Solution -

* Test the water, know where you are at.

* Fill it up - a larger body of water is easier to control and get parameters right

* The water may be a little warm, this time of year you should be ok though, and more water is easier to keep cool

* Get rid of the gravel. Bare tank for the moment would be best, you'll be able to see if he passes stones

* try to cool the tank, cool, clean water will help passing stones.

* Last resort fridging - i agree with you that fridging should only be last resort, but if symptoms of floating etc persisit, it will help pass the stone.

Lastly, dont bother with reply to this post being all defensive or try to tell me why i'm wrong.

I've given you an opinion, opinions are like bums. We all have one, mine might be different to yours, but it's still useful, and i dont care if you dont like mine.

I'm trying to help (like the others) and my axies arent sick, yours is.

Hope it works out
Bren

Bunny · Aug 4, 2011

theJATM said:
i know what hes going through. i joined the forums... 3 or 4 weeks ago, and ive already made 2 threads about sick axolotls. one died, and one is currently acting funny. i dont want people to think im a bad, misinformed owner. but at the end of the day, i wanna be an informed and good owner.

im sorry i cant help in this particular thread. but bunny is clearly stressed and figuring out the cause quickly is important.

Thank you, you are spot on.

carsona246 · Aug 4, 2011

get a liquid drip test kits, strip test kits are very inaccurate. You want your ammonia and nitrite to be 0, and nitrate to be less than 40. If you do have ammonia, do a waterchange until it is less than .5 ppm's. If you do have ammonia chances are that is why your axolotl is floating, and your tank is currently being cycled. You should then monitor your water on a daily basis, and do daily waterchanges to ensure ammonia does not go above .5 ppm's, and nitrite does not go above 3 ppm's.

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