Is sand safe?

Its pretty much taken for granted on this site that sand is a safe substrate to keep axolotls on, with the exception being for very young larvae. If anybody has ever kept an axolotl which has been kept on sand in a bare tank it is amazing how much will be excreted , not over a matter of days but weeks. This indicates that sand may remain in an axolotls digestive tract for prolonged periods. At what point will a build up of sand cause a problem?
I keep all of my adults and larger juveniles on sand but they are either tong fed worms etc or fed pellets which are placed on a tray to keep them off the sand. This I hope will minimize the ingestion , however if an axolotl is solely fed food which it sucks up off a sand the chances of a build up of sand in their gut will be dramatically increased. So I will ask the question again is sand safe? or just safer than pebbles? Your comments will be appreciated.

I've wondered this,I was contemplating switching from bare bottomed to sand,so it'll be interesting to hear people's thoughts about it.
I do wonder if an axolotl ingests a fair amount of sand combined with food if because sand can't (I'm speculating that) be digested that it could,over time build up and cause a blockage.wet sand is quite thick and a bit gloopy,and hard to get out of a bucket(I'm thinking of when I used to build sandcastles and added too much water) so to have that in your digestive system must do some damage,even if it would be slight.

I agree that a build up of sand may potentially cause a blockage( which is why I posted the original post lol), it may also be conceivable that certain sands may be more likely to cause this problem than others.

I'm planning to add sand soon but just doing some reaserch for now. I thought sand is safe and fun for axies as I thought it can easily be passed through as it's very 'fine-grained' if ingested accidently. Will axies swollow it all the time as it's something small or just by accident and during feeding? My Klaus is only tweezer-fed so I know exactly how much he eats and there's no food hiding and decomposing.

EEVEE84 said:

I'm planning to add sand soon but just doing some reaserch for now. I thought sand is safe and fun for axies as I thought it can easily be passed through as it's very 'fine-grained' if ingested accidently. Will axies swollow it all the time as it's something small or just by accident and during feeding? My Klaus is only tweezer-fed so I know exactly how much he eats and there's no food hiding and decomposing.

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Sand is generally considered safe, this post is actually questioning that assumption, in particular for axolotls exclusively fed on pellets which are dropped onto sand and not onto a feeding container . Axolotls accidentally consume sand when they suck up food items , the sand does not pass through their digestive system immediately and their may be the potential for it building up over a period of time, what quantity is required before it could become a problem is a question I would like answered. Many people use sand , including myself, with no problems.

It’s considered safe because when they digest it it will pass through. There was one thread on here where an axolotl loved to eat sand (more than normal) and it caused problems:


http://www.caudata.org/forum/f46-be...num/f58-sick-axolotl/78838-about-give-up.html

but i have never heard of it other than that. Even if they are not bottom feeding there are sure to ingest some, everything seems to end up in their mouths. I doesn’t usually causes blockages (apart from the sand eating axolotl) and that’s why people use it, its small enough to fit through the pipes when they eat it at a regular pace. Even before the lakes in Mexico were polluted with sludge they would have eaten a lot of mud and sand because there was no one hand feeding them. I think they are designed to handle it

if you are super worried, you could use bare bottom or large rocks. Rocks seem to attract lots of waste and are worse for water quality, and there is the bare bottom is 'stressful' argument, so I think all substrates have their advantages and disadvantages.

yellowpebble said:

It’s considered safe because when they digest it it will pass through.
that’s why people use it, its small enough to fit through the pipes when they eat it at a regular pace. Even before the lakes in Mexico were polluted with sludge they would have eaten a lot of mud and sand because there was no one hand feeding them. I think they are designed to handle it
.

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Sand doesn't pass straight through an axolotl, there is an actual buildup which can be seen when an axolotl is kept in a bare tank after being kept on sand. The sand will keep appearing for weeks, which is a lot slower than an axolotl digests its food, so obviously some of the sand is holding in the gut. Has this sand any effect ? Or at what levels would the sand need to be to effect the digestive system ? I dont know but there has to be a point at which it will. I would also disagree that an axolotl hould hang around the bottom slurping up mud/sand with every morsel it eats, though in an aquarium an axolotl fed on pellets will do precisely this. If you watch the behavior of your own axolotls (which may be different from its wild ancestors) they appear to be ambush predators most of the time, hanging around the bottom, poised to strike at passing food items or lazily waiting for a pellet to be dropped on them take your pick, our lazy pet axolotls have no reason to move about too much, they know at some point food will be given to them, so they have developed a successful feeding strategy for aquarium life. Despite this appearance however, there is another side to axolotl feeding behavior which is not related to bottom feeding and not all axolotls will display it. If you introduce live fish into your aquarium you may notice that your axolotls behavior changes, it will become a more proactive hunter. I have a melanoid who will slowly cruise the water subsurface all day to track down guppy fry, taking them like a trout takes nymphs off the surface. The effect is even more pronounced if you introduce a frog to your tank, the surface disturbance it causes draws axolotls like a magnet. This effect can be reproduced to a lesser extent by dangling your fingers in your own tank, the axolotl will sometimes come to investigate the disturbance, they will also swim to the surface to take worms if you dangle them there. These examples of different feeding behaviors show that the assumption that axolotls are bottom feeders who get are mouthful of mud/sand with every meal may be incorrect, axolotls are quite happy to eat at different levels of the water column , to think that a hungry axolotl would ignore a food source which is a few feet above its head may be naive. Rachel was correct when she said that axolotls would take up some mud/sand with some of their food, so it is feasible that they are designed to cope with a certain amount, it may be that some amount would be beneficial, I dont know. Pet axolotls may be overexposed to the intake of sand if they are fed on pellets, which is why I adopt feeding techniques to reduce it. I am interested in other peoples views on this matter.

xxianxx said:

\ Pet axolotls may be overexposed to the intake of sand if they are fed on pellets, which is why I adopt feeding techniques to reduce it. I am interested in other peoples views on this matter.

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I do not know the answer to your question, but I am interested in your feeding techniques as well as the answer to the potential "sand problem". Mine instantly knows when a worm is coming down, she sense it at the surface and I swear she sees it above the water sometimes. I recently received the salmon pellets and she loves those. I'm trying to implement this bowl and get her to eat out of it, but I feel like its going to be difficult . When I see her eat the pellets off of my sand substrate I DO see sand go in, but I also see a lot come right back out through her mouth and gills as she "chews". So maybe while some goes in, like 90% of it goes right back out. I cannot tell if she poops sand, though. I would imagine that at some point a large amount of inedible food in one's stomach would cause some sort of blockage, but maybe axolotls (like Rachel said), are built to deal with this before it becomes a real issue to them. They're built FORD tough.

Even if your axolotls are handfed I'm sure they're getting sand in their system. Many gravel users are adamant that there is no way for gravel to get in their axolotl's mouth because they are handfed, but we all know how that story goes.
My axolotls will occasionally lunge at "phantom worms". I'm sure this could be a potential way to get sand in the system, and I handfeed my axolotls as well
If consuming sand was considered unsafe we would have noticed more health problems with axolotls kept on sand. Gravel has the obvious health risk, but I doubt many axolotls have had health problems due to sand consumption. I'm not saying I don't think it's possible for sand consumption to pose a threat to axolotls, just that it's highly unlikely an axolotl will consume so much sand it will not be able to get rid of it. When an axolotl swallows gravel the problem lies in the potential for the axolotl to not pass the gravel through it's system. Sand will pass through the system

Kenneth said:

I do not know the answer to your question, but I am interested in your feeding techniques as well as the answer to the potential "sand problem". Mine instantly knows when a worm is coming down, she sense it at the surface and I swear she sees it above the water sometimes. I recently received the salmon pellets and she loves those. I'm trying to implement this bowl and get her to eat out of it, but I feel like its going to be difficult . When I see her eat the pellets off of my sand substrate I DO see sand go in, but I also see a lot come right back out through her mouth and gills as she "chews". So maybe while some goes in, like 90% of it goes right back out. I cannot tell if she poops sand, though. I would imagine that at some point a large amount of inedible food in one's stomach would cause some sort of blockage, but maybe axolotls (like Rachel said), are built to deal with this before it becomes a real issue to them. They're built FORD tough.

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The techniques that I use are pretty common, pellets are placed on a bowl to keep them off the sand and larger food items are fed with tongs. I agree that axolotls are probably built to cope with a certain amount of non food items passing through their gut, my argument is that axolotls feeding off pellets may be overexposed to the amount of substrate they are ingesting. I would say that sand is probably not dangerous in the short term, if it was there would be adequate warnings about it on this site. However what , if any, are the long term effects of having a build up of sand in the gut ? Is it a hidden danger that only has long term implications for a axolotls general health rather than specific problems like gravel impaction ? Does a build up of sand effect the digestive systems ability to absorb nutrients ? Does sand in the gut trigger an axolotl to stop eating as it thinks it is full? Axolotls generally dont overeat, if you compare them to a species like african clawed frogs( I keep X.laevis) where certain individuals will try to kill themselves by gorging themselves if given half a chance. The axolotl doesn't do this, indicating a biological mechanism which tells them when to stop eating, it is theoretically possible that a gut full of sand could trigger this and cause a decrease in food intake. We all want to provide a decent standard of life for our pets, so hopefully a qualified biologist can shed some light on these questions.

carsona246 said:

When an axolotl swallows gravel the problem lies in the potential for the axolotl to not pass the gravel through it's system. Sand will pass through the system

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Sorry I was typing my previous post when you posted yours, otherwise I would have addressed it then. Yes, my axolotls will consume sand, I just try and reduce the amount that they do. Sand does pass through an axolotls digestive system but a certain amount of it will take a couple of weeks to go through, showing that there is the potential for a build up. What are the potential for long term effects on the axolotl from overexposure to sand consumption? I dont know, im hoping a qualified person can tell me. Also, keeping axolotls on sand is so common that any potential long term problems may be hidden and any health issues resulting from it passed off as unrelated, problems such as lack of appetite, weight loss/gain , decreased life expectancy etc.

Axolotls are a type of mole salamander, they burrow and dig. More evolved forms live in burrows. They would have eaten mud in the wild. And digestion isn't as simple as in and out in one lot. Things like meat and dairy have been proven to stay in our gut for weeks, even months. Plant matter comes out first, then complex carbs, then simple carbs, then meat products sometimes weaks later. We are totally different from salamanders of course, it just shows things come out at different times, perticularly considering sand is not digetible. Sand moving through slower doesn't mean its building up or causing blockages, intestines are designed to move things through. I dont think its a bad thing at all, unless it eats it instead of food.

yellowpebble said:

Axolotls are a type of mole salamander, they burrow and dig. More evolved forms live in burrows. They would have eaten mud in the wild. And digestion isn't as simple as in and out in one lot. Things like meat and dairy have been proven to stay in our gut for weeks, even months. Plant matter comes out first, then complex carbs, then simple carbs, then meat products sometimes weaks later. We are totally different from salamanders of course, it just shows things come out at different times, perticularly considering sand is not digetible. Sand moving through slower doesn't mean its building up or causing blockages, intestines are designed to move things through. I dont think its a bad thing at all, unless it eats it instead of food.

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You make some valid points Rachel, axolotls are probably designed to cope with consuming a certain amount on non digestible matter. My point is that by feeding axolotls pellets directly onto sand they are being overexposed to consumption of their substrate, I have hypothesized (maybe wrongly) that axolotls in the wild would not exclusively feed of the bottom so we could be potentially be overloading their digestive system, this may possibly have effects on an axolotls overall health . If sand was dangerous in the short term its effects would probably be a well known. However, what are the potential long term effects? I dont know, which is why this thread is entitled "Is sand safe?", note the question mark. The general consensus on this site is that sand causes no problems. A consensus, even if it is by knowledgeable people is not always correct, in times gone by the consensus was that the world was flat. It was not until somebody came up with an alternate theorey and proof that the prevailing opinion was eventually changed. Unfortunately I am short on proof (as usual !), all I have done is made some observations, theorized and asked some questions. I have made no conclusions, I have simply opened the question to debate in a forum full of axolotl fans. Thanks Rachel for your common sense response, it is appreciated.

I am amazed that the questioning of sand as a substrate has elicited so little response. It is virtual dogma on this site that sand is safe, I am surprised that so few people have sprung to its defense.

I can see how a big build up of sand could cause problems, I have wondered about it myself. I think the main thing is that with most axies the sand passes through eventually, without causing a clog up.

But if sand is causing problems for any particular axie, I wouldn't use it. I do agree that any kind of substrate can cause problems - gravel causing impaction, large stones habouring un-eaten food/waste, bare bottom causing stress in some animals.

I don't advise using gravel at all since it seems to be the most dangerous of all substrates, they can swallow something that is just too big for them to get out. But otherwise I think it's what works best for you and your axie. If you like large stones and are willing to go to the effort of making sure all waste/food is removed thats good, If you prefer sand and your axie isn't constantly eating it on purpose that's good too and if you just like bare bottom and it doesn't stress you axie out that's also good.

I have sand, and hand feed Alex, but I know this doesn't stop him from swallowing it randomly. I use sand because I'm worried too much waste will build up with large stones, I don't like how bare bottom looks and he doesn't seem to like been on bare glass and I've seen way, way too many horror stories about gravel. Sand just seems like the best and safest option to me personally.

I would agree that sand is probally the best option as a substrate, i am just questioning the assumption that it is safe for 100% of axolotls.

not dogma, just what most people find works. If someone found it was causing issues, i'm sure they would switch.

yellowpebble said:

not dogma, just what most people find works. If someone found it was causing issues, i'm sure they would switch.

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dog·ma (dôgm, dg-)
n. pl. dog·mas or dog·ma·ta (-m-t)
1. A doctrine or a corpus of doctrines relating to matters such as morality and faith, set forth in an authoritative manner by a church.
2. An authoritative principle, belief, or statement of ideas or opinion, especially one considered to be absolutely true. See Synonyms at doctrine.
3. A principle or belief or a group of them

Dogma is the correct word, definitions 2 and 3 describe the attitude to sand in this forum. I have merely opened a debate to a group of fellow enthusiasts, if there were obvious short term health implications to using sand it would probably have been recognized, however are there any potential long term health implications for axolotls ingesting sand? Even if it is a very small minority of axolotls suffering adverse effects, it is important to the welfare of our pets to find out. I have yet to see anybody offering facts in this thread (myself included lol)and a "fact" without proof is merely an opinion.

I see what you're saying. I guess no option is completely 100% safe really. I mean they all have downsides.

Is there any chance that sand is deliberately consumed for dietary needs?
-Turtles have been known to eat their substrate when calcium is low, so theoretically axies may have evolved to consume some of their substrate with their meal.
-Could sand play a role in the physical side of digestion? There are several types of animal that eat rocks and gravel to help churn up their food.
-Could there be a benefit from bacteria in the sand helping digestion?

I'm just throwing those out there, because other than axies evolving to cope with "accidental" ingestion of sand, they seem like logical reasons to me for them to evolve a mechanism to cope with sand and fine substrates in their digestive tract. Has there been any research on similar ideas?

I've just been reading this because I'm trying to deduce a suitable substrate for my axies new enclosure, and I still feel relatively confident in sand or silt. Is it safe to assume that the finer the substrate, the easier it will pass through the gut?

Best,
Paul