What would you like to know?

So in feb I need to submit a rough guide for my dissertation and I was thinking of either submitting one on prosimians or submitting one on axolotls. As I have 5 of the latter in my room it is going to be the easiest and cheapest one I would imagine! But I'm not too sure what to base it on, I've had a couple of ideas and then thought I'd ask here what people would like to know about the little monsters and haven't been able to find research on

Re: What would you like too know?

I'd like to know about axolotl psychology; their capacity for learning, recognising different stimuli, memory, their ability to visually recognise other axolotls, their ability to recognise when a person is making eye contact with them and things like that.

Re: What would you like too know?

They've all gone through my head It's just how to execute them

Also, just want to apologise for the spelling mistake in the title, I guess that is what happens when I go straight on the pc after rolling out of bed minus coffee!

Re: What would you like too know?

Loads of stuff you could do, i would be interested in the effects of lighting on activity levels , i believe my axolotls are more active with subdued lighting they certainly spend less time hiding when the tanks are shaded. Predatory response to surface vibration is another topic, axolotls will track surface disturbance from frogs/fish very effectivly, much more so than at mid water level, which leads me to question the assumption that they are bottom feeders. The effect of tankmates, do tank mates effect feeding/activity levels? do axolotls have preffered tank mates?, how does the removal or addition of a new tank mate effect them? axolotls are classed as non social animals, however i have a theorey that we may have inadvertently bred a level of sociability in them which may be different from wild axolotls, we have kept them in close proximity to each other for generations, axolotls with an aversion to this may be less likely to breed, have we bred more "friendly" axolotls? if so what is form does this sociability take?. Axolotl body language, we recognise when they are hungry, with juvies it is easy to see when one is planning to bite a tank mate, the lowered head and coming in at a slight angle to the side, a stance which makes the intended victim look a tad nervous(my interpratation lol). What other forms of body language do axolotls use (if any) to each other? Hope you get a few ideas from that lot, let us know how you get on.

Re: What would you like too know?

xxianxx said:

axolotls are classed as non social animals, however i have a theorey that we may have inadvertently bred a level of sociability in them which may be different from wild axolotls, we have kept them in close proximity to each other for generations, axolotls with an aversion to this may be less likely to breed, have we bred more "friendly" axolotls? if so what is form does this sociability take?

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Dogs have been bred so that, for the most part, they prefer the company of humans to the company of other dogs, and I've wondered if something similar is occuring in axolotls. Most of my axolotls are either shy or indifferent towards my presence, but one of them from a very early age would ignore (or eat on a couple of occasions, before I isolated it) it's tank mates, and would respond to me whenever I made eye contact with it, and come over to the glass and watch me.

axolotl peekaboo - YouTube

It's grown out of it's cannibalistic phase and I now have it in a tank with another ex-cannibal, but it's still far more interested in me than in it's tank mate, although they're both quite content to share a tank with each other.

I've also noticed other axolotls gently touching their noses together, and I think they might be identifying each other through olfaction. When I move axolotls that have been raised together into a new tank, I've seen them huddle together until they get used to the new surroundings, however the axolotls in my ponds seem to spread out more and don't interact as much as the ones in tanks, so sociability might be partly a product of environment.

Re: What would you like too know?

Star said:

They've all gone through my head It's just how to execute them

Also, just want to apologise for the spelling mistake in the title, I guess that is what happens when I go straight on the pc after rolling out of bed minus coffee!

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I'd like to be able to psychologically profile my axolotls, and breed them for certain traits like curiosity, sociability and activity levels, but I've gotten stuck on the execution part too. I'm fairly handy with DIY stuff, and I'd be able to construct axolotl mazes and test chambers and things like that; I just haven't had the time to seriously plan it out.

Re: What would you like too know?

peter5930 said:

Dogs have been bred so that, for the most part, they prefer the company of humans to the company of other dogs, and I've wondered if something similar is occuring in axolotls.

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Dogs are already a social animal, we have converted that sociability to prefer us(in some cases), I am not sure if axolotls have the necessary brain structure to become a genuinely social animal. The changes in your axolotls behavior are probably down to conditioning, it sees you and associates you with food and shows an interest, wether it actually prefers your company over its tank mate is probably dependent on how many worms you are carrying. However i have noticed in my own axolotls that some seem to develop "friendships" , for want of a better word, where they have certain tankmates whos company prefer and show signs of stress if that companion is removed but no signs of stress if a non favoured companion is removed. Is this emotional attatchment? i doubt it but it does give food for thought.

Re: What would you like too know?

xxianxx said:

Dogs are already a social animal, we have converted that sociability to prefer us(in some cases), I am not sure if axolotls have the necessary brain structure to become a genuinely social animal. The changes in your axolotls behavior are probably down to conditioning, it sees you and associates you with food and shows an interest, wether it actually prefers your company over its tank mate is probably dependent on how many worms you are carrying. However i have noticed in my own axolotls that some seem to develop "friendships" , for want of a better word, where they have certain tankmates whos company prefer and show signs of stress if that companion is removed but no signs of stress if a non favoured companion is removed. Is this emotional attatchment? i doubt it but it does give food for thought.

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I'm not suggesting that axolotls could be bred to have complex social behaviours (unless you want to consider massive intensive breeding programs spanning tens of thousands of years or longer), but they can be bred to be less skittish and more bold, more tolerant of tank mates, more curious about their surroundings and more active; those sorts of changes only require small alterations in things like the expression of stress hormones.

It might also be quite easy to tweak higher-level instincts, like the instincts to eat anything long and wriggly or small and twitchy, to think twice before trying to eat something with a face and gills that stick out, and to dive to the bottom when something casts a shadow over the water. An axolotl with the 'dive to the bottom' instinct suppressed and low levels of stress hormones might turn out to be extremely friendly and a good hand-feeder, even though the changes are very minor.

Re: What would you like too know?

but that's not sociability. I'm not sure if you'd want to go the psychology route on axolotls. Your only indicators would be outward behavior, and we all know axolotls do little of anything.
However if you did manage to get your hands on a wild axolotl you could always compare the two behaviors like Ian suggested and see if there are any behavioral differences. But any conclusions would still lack power, seeing as I doubt you could get your hands on enough wildcaught axolotls to come up with any results that are statistically significant. Not to mention any interpretations on those behavioral differences would be reverse inferences.

Re: What would you like too know?

peter5930 said:

I'd like to be able to psychologically profile my axolotls, and breed them for certain traits like curiosity, sociability and activity levels

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I have conjectured in previous posts that these traits may inadvertently been fixed in our captive axolotls, we have kept axolotls in an unnatural environment for generations, it would not be surprising to find that their behavior has evolved from their wild state. We keep are axolotls in close proximity to each other, they no longer have to compete with each other for food and hiding areas, lower mortality rates will have diluted certain traits that would have ment the difference between death and surviving to pass on an individuals genes, one of these traits may have been aggression, is it possible that we have bred a more "sociable" axolotl? I would love somebody to do a comparative study between captive and wild axolotl behavior but unfortunately the chances of that are limited due to the number of wild axolotls left.

Re: What would you like too know?

carsona246 said:

but that's not sociability.

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If a population of animals interact more frequently and more peacefully with each other than their ancestors did, would you not consider that they'd become more sociable than their ancestors were? Frequent and peaceful axolotl-axolotl interactions (axolotl sociability?) aren't the only thing I'm interested in; I'd particularly like to increase axolotl-human interactions, and it doesn't particularly matter to me how you characterise such interactions or what motivations you ascribe to them. If an axolotl hangs out at the front of the tank with me and comes to the surface to be fed because it's fearless and thinks I look tasty, that's pretty good going from my perspective, although non-murderous interactions would be even better.

I'm not sure if you'd want to go the psychology route on axolotls. Your only indicators would be outward behavior, and we all know axolotls do little of anything.

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Psychological experiments have been done successfully with frogs and goldfish, so I don't see why it couldn't be done with axolotls. Also, since axolotls are a model organism that are used in labs around the world, the low-hanging fruit in other areas of axolotl research might already have been picked, with axolotl psychology being one of the few areas left that can be researched without lots of funding and access to specialised equipment, however I haven't done a literature review on axolotl research, so I don't know how comprehensive the existing body of research really is.

xxianxx said:

I have conjectured in previous posts that these traits may inadvertently been fixed in our captive axolotls, we have kept axolotls in an unnatural environment for generations, it would not be surprising to find that their behavior has evolved from their wild state. We keep are axolotls in close proximity to each other, they no longer have to compete with each other for food and hiding areas, lower mortality rates will have diluted certain traits that would have ment the difference between death and surviving to pass on an individuals genes, one of these traits may have been aggression, is it possible that we have bred a more "sociable" axolotl? I would love somebody to do a comparative study between captive and wild axolotl behavior but unfortunately the chances of that are limited due to the number of wild axolotls left.

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Perhaps someone, somewhere, has been keeping a population of axolotls in a large pond or small lake under more or less wild conditions for decades. If not, it would be nice if someone did so, in order to maintain a close-to-wild population so that if/when the wild populations in Mexico go extinct, there aren't just axolotls that have seen nothing but the inside of an aquarium for dozens of generations.

If the only axolotls available to stock such a pond/lake were from captive sources, it would still be better to start now than to wait until the captive populations have diverged even further from the wild populations, and over time, natural selection would drive them back towards a wild state (not the original wild state, but a new wild state, and there would be less genetic diversity than was present in the wild Mexican populations).

I have axolotls in a 5,000 litre and a 2,500 litre pond in my garden, but it's nowhere near to the size required to provide them with a naturalish habitat or to support a genetically stable population.

Re: What would you like too know?

peter5930 said:

If an axolotl hangs out at the front of the tank with me and comes to the surface to be fed because it's fearless and thinks I look tasty, that's pretty good going from my perspective, although non-murderous interactions would be even better.

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What you're talking about is conditioning. They're just reacting to the food, and nothing else This is not sociability. Axolotls can live perfectly happy lives, and have no negative side effects of being alone. A social animal would not be able to live a happy life by itself, and there would be negative side effects to isolation.

peter5930 said:

Psychological experiments have been done successfully with frogs and goldfish

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I never said a psychological experiment couldn't be done with an axolotl, but they would only be able to use behavior as an indicator. Look at your goldfish example, "operant" learning, as in operant conditioning

An animal that is perfectly happy living alone is not a social animal. Any interpretation of their behavior such as going near the glass, or piling on each other is anthropomorphism. They are not social animals, artificial selection or not. Axolotls have not been bred selectively for sociability, and have no social behaviors, so I think the possibility of sociability being accidentally bred into axolotls is a little far fetched.

Re: What would you like too know?

carsona246 said:

Axolotls have not been bred selectively for sociability, and have no social behaviors, so I think the possibility of sociability being accidentally bred into axolotls is a little far fetched.

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I have never said they have been "selectively" bred for sociability, we have changed an animals environment for generations, it is not far fetched to hypothesize that we have changed their behavior. Captive axolotls who are more tolerant of being in close contact with others are less likely to be stressed and probably more likely to breed, if "sociability" is a trait that can be fixed we may have inadvertently bred axolotls who are happy/tolerant of each others presence. Wether this makes them social animals who require an others company to thrive is debatable, it would presume they have the mental/emotional capabilities to process their environment, which to be honest they probably haven't got. Axolotls do exhibit social behavior, fighting, breeding, they also recognize when another axolotl is going to bite them, this is very clearly observed with young larvae, the aggressor will drop its head (as they do when they cross a food item on the floor)and move towards its intended target, the target will try to pull back and the aggressor will try to come in at a slight angle to the side of the head or body before striking if the target doesnt fall back out of range, this is body language, wether axolotls actually use this as a threat display or wether the target just recognizes an attack, posture is open to interpretation, it does point towards non verbal communication or at least recognition of another individuals intent, both of which could be classed as social interaction.If you are going to make a statement of fact about axolotl behavior it is a good idea to back it up with actual studies , we have had this same conversation on several occasions and i have invited you to convince me with any scientific studies that back up your stance. Regrettably you have failed to do so.

Re: What would you like too know?

Breeding and fighting is not social behavior, and I agree, I seriously doubt they have the mental capacity to be a social animal.
One axolotl attacking another is not non-verbal communication.
And as we've already discussed there are no scientific studies, so why don't you provide a study providing evidence to the contrary? All you present is behavior you have interpreted to be social interaction(which isn't actually social interaction), and anthropomorphic explanations. There really is no need for scientific data to prove this. If an animal is fine in isolation it is not a social animal, end of story.

Re: What would you like too know?

carsona246 said:

One axolotl attacking another is not non-verbal communication.

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Correct, the fact that they appear to pick up on body cues is a form of interaction though , the aggressor does not necessarily adopt a threat/feeding stance as a form of communicating its intentions but it appears that the intended target recognizes the body cues and will take avoiding action. This could be interpreted as non verbal communication if the aggressor intends its intended target to understand its intentions, unfortunately I cant ask the axolotl its motivation for adopting that particular stance. Another potential example of communication i have observed and only in specific circumstances, is when a young axolotl who has been isolated for several months, is placed in a tank with another axolotl who is used to company, the isolated axolotl when approached will take a stiff legged stance raising its head and exposing its throat possibly to make itself look bigger , i first noticed this behavior several years ago, the posture is not one i have seen replicated in any other circumstance and whenever it is employed the other axolotl backs off. I have observed this behavior several times since and am planning to isolate several axolotls from my next batch, so hopefully I can record this as a threat display and an actual example of body language, bear with me though it wont be for a few months.

Re: What would you like too know?

you should look into sociability research on moose; they are a non-social species who is possibly in the early stages of developing sociability. When thrown together in groups during winter, you can observe an uneasy relationship between group members; such as cruder, less subtle interactions and more aggressive displacements than between members of a truly social species, such as caribou.....

in caudates, however, there are no truly social species as far as we know, so it would be difficult to get a comparison

Re: What would you like too know?

you could say an axolotl has nonverbal communication with a falling rock then.

Re: What would you like too know?

carsona246 said:

you could say an axolotl has nonverbal communication with a falling rock then.

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A falling rock would probably elicit an avoidance response from an axolotl a stationary rock would not. If you equate the falling rock with an aggresive axolotl and a stationary rock with a non aggressive axolotl, the difference would be in the aggressive axolotls intent, is it lining up another axoltol for attack or merely putting up a threat display to change the behavior of another individual ?. If it is a threat display it would definetly be non verbal communication. Either way the axolotl under threat is processing body language of another axolotl and understanding what it means, making it a form of communication.

1/ I would like to know that a paper was written which highlighted the endangered species issues for the axolotl and the impact environmental changes to their habitat have impacted on there numbers in the wild.
Pehaps something that outlined and established what would need to occur for an effective sanctuary so that there number's in the wild could be improved to the point where they are no longer an endangered speceis.

2/ I am also interested to know whether they sleep.

Star , please do a study on axolotls social behavior, im starting to loose the will to live.