Pale gills

Hey.

I was wondering, as my Cocosha is erecting stones, is it normal for his gills to go a bit paler?
1) Like almost no colour, then, when he swims, they go red again. They are pointing slightly forward from time to time, but the tail is not cured, it is straight all the way to the end. No other changes, gladely. He looks up most of the time.
2) He "yawns" widely sometimes, and the stone inside, which I can see (around 0.5 cm for my 16 cm long axolotl, hopefully, not too big to pass, is it?), moves forward towards the mouth a bit, then goes back again to the middle of his belly. Is this a good sign?

PS: cloaca is back to it's normal size, so am glad about that.

Thank you.

When axolotls don't move much their gills tend to be pale, they turn red when they move around because of the increased blood flow. Much like when our cheeks go red after we've been running around or something.

As for the stone: hopefully it is not too big to pass. People have successfully removed stones from inside their axolotls with the use of forceps but if the stone is of similar or smaller size than the others he has passed then it's probable he will be able to pass it. I probably wouldn't go the forceps route unless it was necessary...

Thank you. That was what I suspected as well.

The second stone is, unfortnately, slightly bigger, as far as I can see. It is located almost in the middle of the belly right next to the sking surface, so I can clearly see it is in there here is the picture: http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...a.519692272598.97586.223709373&type=3&theater

The troubling moment is that we do not have such professionals in Latvia, who can remove the stones mechanically, so, if my ax is not able to pass or throw up the stones, I will be left with no other choice: are those forceps a type of surgery? How does it work? (sounds scary and dangerous)

The picture is a little blurry but it looks like it's lodged quite close to her mouth still, which is probably good as it means it will be easier to get remove if you have to. Google 'forceps', they are like tweezers.

Have a look through this thread where someone successfully removed a stone from an axolotl that had swallowed it:
http://www.caudata.org/forum/f46-be.../f58-sick-axolotl/68478-large-rock-belly.html
The post is about halfway down.

You would have to take your axie and put it in a container with fresh water and then perhaps gently try and push the stone towards it's mouth. You might have to try force it's mouth open and remove the stone with some forceps.

The best situation would be if you attempt to push the stone up towards the axolotls mouth and it vomits it out on it's own. Speaking of vomit - is your axolotl still eating? I once overfed one of my axolotls accidentally (she kept stealing the worms from the others!) and she brought them all back up very quickly. This could possibly work and she might attempt to throw up the stone if you feed her a fair bit more than you normally would... though the downside to this is that if she didn't throw anything up it might force the stone down further.

I would normally never advocate anyone handle their axolotl like this, but if you have no other options (ie. no vet) then it is probably one of your few choices, other than just hoping your axolotl can deal with the stone itself, which seems unlikely if it's rather large.
There are a lot of things to consider if you decide to go this route and I would not be taking the decision to do something like this lightly. If you do decide to try this I would advise having someone else there (even if just for moral support!) and trying to be as gentle as possible.

Good luck. I hope your axie will be okay.

Yes, this is the last thing I will do if no other choice.

But hey! Look at this picture:
Aleksejs Vinogradskis's photos | Facebook
I am pretty sure he is in the process with his rear legs pointing outwards and cloaca a bit bigger, than usual. He floats a little bit up and down.
And I can not see the stone in his belly, does it mean it is near the cloaca and almost out?

Ah, back to normal posture ... no stone But can not see the stone from outside now ... .

Stone back into position right in the middle of the belly First attempt to pass was not successful Would it mean anything?

Seems weird that your axie would attempt to pass a stone (which is definitely what it looks like in that picture) and then it would go back into a different position in the belly.... I don't know enough about axolotl biology to know how that would work.

But it's looking like it might be too big to pass, it could lead to a prolapse which would not be good.

To be honest, other than surgery, there is little you can do other than wait and hope. Make sure the water stays cool. I hope the stones soon come out for you.

Thank you. I hope Cocosha makes it with the stones

By the way, is it normal for him to sort of YAWN? He opens is mouth widely and looks like he wants to vomit. May be he does? Or he takes water into the belly to push the stones out?
May be I shall move him into the fridge as well? He hasn't eaten for 3 days, may be wait for a week, then feed a very small prawn and fridge if he doesn't poop stones out?

PS: Totosha (in the fridge) poops out stuff, still no stones, water is changed 100% every day with water conditioner added.

Yawning, or 'opening the Tunnel of Doom' is pretty common in axolotls.

I would put him in the fridge. It will help pass the stones.

Sorry, Totosha, the one in the fridge, pooped something, but it does not look like a stone, more like ordinary poo, but round one His belly looks alright, it's not blown as before, still I am pretty sure I saw him swallowing (or sucking at least) a small red stone (my be it was inside the poo?) ... Shall I keep him in the fridge for a week just to be sure? (he has been fridged for 3 days). Thanks.

PS: Cocosha going into the fridge this evening. Doing this with a heavy heart, as they both are gonna be in the fridge from today

A week in the fridge should be enough.

The fridge is more like a vacation than a punishment. Remember, their historic habitat is glacial-fed lakes; they like it cold.

Thank you. So it is fridging till friday for him then
Oh, and Cocosha threw up a stone tonight around 1cm in diameter, definitely vomited, not pooped, can see a white slime over he stone. He swims a lot, mostly near the surface (is that ok?) and seems active. Shall I feed him something small, like a piece of a prawn? Or wait a little bit?
So, overall, am very happy and waiting for some stones from Totosha (the one in the fridge)

Good to hear. Is Cocosha the axie with the stone that was visible in it's belly? Is it no longer there?

See if you can feed him, probably won't hurt. Is he swimming around back and forth a lot? This can sometimes mean that something is stressing them out - though you'd think after throwing up something like that they'd be feeling relieved more than anything. Maybe he's just partying cause he is happy he no longer has a stone in his belly.

Yes, he is the one with the visible stone. It is gone and I will save it to show all those who think gravels can still be safe and to remind myself not to risk with anything else anymore
He swims a lot, so I will change some water (1/3) to make sure nothing contaminated.

By the way, I have been having a filter sine I got them both, and they actually quite often were laying under the separating tube (where there is the most flow). But people say they don't like water flow ... dunno what to think But filter raises water t' for around 2 degrees 'C (from like 20 to 22). You think I shall keep water filtrated or turn it off? How often should I change the water then if the tank is 170 liters for 2 axies?

PS: the outflow is such that axie can't stay on the glass bottom under the outcome, he slides but then he comes back and slides again, like playing

As long as the flow doesn't affect the entire tank, and the axolotls can get to areas of still water, it should be fine.

If you have a filter, you should either always have it on, or take it out of the tank completely. Turning filters on and off will ruin your filter, and it completely defeats the purpose of having a filter. If your filter is warming the tank, think about getting an air pump and a couple of sponge filters instead of a mechanical filter.

How often you change the water depends on your water chemistry. That's a fairly large tank for two axolotls, so you should be able to get away with maybe 10% a week, but again, it's best to test for ammonia and nitrite to tell you when you need a water change.

Thank you.
I do change water 30% weekly. There are areas of still water, but they both spend most time under the tube if they stay still.
What do you mean by sponge filter? I do have an air pump, but it generates a lot of bubbles and, therefore, some noise, so I assumed I can get enough aeration with regular water changes. Am I right?
Do water plants produce oxygen like ordinary plants by the way? I have quite a lot of vegetation and places to hide under them They like laying under routes and leafs.

A sponge filter is just an air-driven filter. They can be 'splashy'-sounding. But it doesn't sound like your filter is a problem; many axolotls like to hang out by the output because that's where the most oxygenated/fresh water is. They're inherently lazy animals.

Plants produce oxygen, even if they're underwater plants.

It sounds like you've got a good handle on things. I hope everything turns out okay!

Eh, Totosha (one in the fridge) pooped only once after I put him in, after like 2 days, no poo after that and it has been a week for him in the fridge now. Can not see any stones as well, but he is rather active when I do water changes, even though it is 6'C !!! Would it mean he is ok? His belly seems fine.
Do you think I can put him back into the tank and see how he feels? (Cocosha is missing his buddy )
And a quick question on substrate: does 1 - 1,5 mm sand seem fine? I saw Cocosha pooping out a 4mm stone out with no trouble (although he had to throw the 1cm one up, luckily). The tank is empty at the moment (in terms of ground cover), so am thinking of what to put in there now.