Breeding ethics

OK, so maybe I'm opening up a can of worms, but here it goes.
My axies recently "and unexpectedly) laid a batch of eggs. I was actually really happy and thought I would continue to raise them (both for my own interest, and I may also be able to sell them to the nearby specialty reptile stores, "alternative pet show," etc.
Now, I had thought that it was common knowledge that if the axies breed, you will probably have to cull some of the eggs or babies. This is so that you can use your resources and time wisely to promote the health of those that remain, rather than having a large batch of sickly axies. I'm not shy to say it: culling means killing some of them. (Perhaps I am slightly influenced by the fact that I grew up in a rural farming community?)
This quite upset my friends when I brought up the topic. They were excited for the babies, but didn't want any of them- even the 1 day old eggs- damaged in any way. (Even after I explained that a large number of eggs are laid because many are not EXPECTED to survive, evolutionarily speaking.) I'd also like to note that no one volunteered to adopt any of them either. :lame: Anyhow, it also morphed into this strange comparison to human abortions. Now, I'm not asking for any debate on that topic, but has anyone else encountered such behavior, or are my friends just weird? I mean, I can understand at least the aversion to culling, but in my opinion, the alternative is that I don't have ANY of them hatch, or they are all eaten by the parents, and I don't see that as being much better. But the stretch all the way to insinuating my opinion on abortion? Cheese and rice!

P.waltl's lay a lot of eggs and it's no use raising them all, because you can't get rid of them even if you give them away for free. If the eggs remain with the adults they eventually get eten most of the time, so I don't bother taking the eggs out.

I had this idea of letting them hatch only to feed them to my other newts. I don't see why this is any diffirent than feeding them a worm or a little fish or let the eggs get eaten. My gf, with whom I share this hobby with, doesn't want this to happen, so her will be done. I don't see the problem though.

I think culling comes in various forms, some of which are acceptable to the majority of us and some which are not. Choosing to dispose of excess eggs before they develop or allowing the adults to eat them is generally deemed ok as is culling any that exhibit disabilities. Waiting for the young to hatch and then only keeping desired colours is probably not ok. I personally try and give away any eggs that are surplus to my requirements and then do my best to raise all that I have left.


Regards Neil

I completely agree with neil, I got rid of a lot of my eggs the day they were laid, and I didnt feel bad about this as they werent developed, and if they were to develop I wouldnt have been able to look after them all being even crueler.

I had a few misformed axies that werent eating that had to be culled, I kept them for a few days after hatching to see if they were ok but they werent just deteriorating, so in my opinion I was fair to the axolotl.

I am very VERY against culling for no reason when things are formed because they are a little life that can grow, but when they are eggs barely formed at all i see no problem with it myself.

Im a big animal lover and I dont agree with most things, but I agree that most axolotl eggs have to be culled if you dont intend to look after them or cant find them homes, or they can be a tasty snack to others like your own axy or fishies, my carp ate some and the goldfish although they werent too happy with the goo haha

People get upset about these things, but if they arent prepared to take the problem out of yours hands their opinion doesnt count in my opinion as raising 200+ axolotls was a challenge for me to begin with!

Sheena22

I agree that it depends on how + why the culling is done. As long as it's done in a humane way (whether that be before the eggs develop into little animals, or whether it be at a later date due to necessity, as long as it's done in a way that won't cause any pain) some times it has to be done.
I don't think I agree with deliberately feeding hatched axies to an animal, because they are the animal that you are keeping as a pet (yet worms e.t.c. are kept as a food source + are considered to have lesser sensory capabilities), but having said that, I have had both pet mice + pet rats before, but need them to feed my current snakes. I could probably deal with raising my own as a food source, but not with an animal that I have a real liking for, purely because I know I'd get to the stage where I'd want to keep certain offspring because they appear extra cute to me + then that animal would become a pet species, but since I'm buying them in already humane culled, I eliminate the chance of wanting to keep any of them
However, if someone was raising axolotls as a food source for another species then while I wouldn't like it, I'd have to admit that's their choice, as long as they're humanely culled before being used as food (+ I'd also say that this forum is the wrong place for that person, LoL!)
And , until someone figures out a way to sterilise axolotls, there will be "accidents" since they can be tricky to determine the genders. Instead of comparing them with humans, why not compare them with dogs - in a lot of pounds, dogs are neutered / castrated before being rehomed, to prevent unwanted animals, because of the sheer numbers. And, some are even euthanised if they don't find a new home within a certain amount of time - surely it's better to reduce the numbers BEFORE an animal gains self awareness?!
Alternatively, in Scotland, among other places, they have an annual deer cull, to control numbers, otherwise the increasing numbers of animals would cause difficulty for the entire population of deer, as they get less + less territory / food / e.t.c. Whilst that sounds horrid, modern life reduces their territory + has removed natural predators, so some thing has to be done.
Like you say, in the wild, the axolotl numbers would be kept in check by predators + natural factors.

Valid opinions one and all. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. If anyone else has opinions, please feel free.

Personally I can't stand the idea of watching little axies get eaten up by the bigger ones though I understand it happens in the wild (I just can't let it happen in my tank). I have found that there are many people online willing to pay for you to ship free eggs to them through the post so that will be what I do next time I have a batch of eggs. I think you ought to ask the folks on here if they want the eggs but other than that I see no problem with culling eggs...not sure how I would feel about culling hatched ones but that is up to you.

Don't breed them thinking it's a get-rich quick scheme. Unless you have the means to mail them all over, you'll quickly flood your local market. Then, you can't even give them away. So you may be able to get rid of all your eggs/juvies the first time or two they breed, but after that, it gets more and more difficult.

I think you're being responsible by raising only the number you can do comfortably. So many people come on here thinking they can raise, and get rid of, 300 larvae. There's thread after thread about people keeping too many, larvae dying, and then how they're stuck with 35 sub-adults.

I'm dealing with a similar problem. When my axolotls laid eggs I decided to keep about 50 of them (thinking only a small % would hatch and survive). All 50 of them hatched late December and they're all alive and well. I'm hoping once they get a little bigger I'll be able to ship them to new owners. I refuse to cull them, but I can only give them the care they deserve until they get so big.

I'm afraid I'm with the friends on the original post. I just cannot bare to kill anything, then again I don't have a massive amount of eggs. Its just a personal thing I think. I fully understand the reasons for culling but just cannot bring myself to do it.

I know this thread is kind of old, but I'll chime in. Back when i was on the Dendroboard, there was a member there who crossbred Dendrobates azureus with Dendrobates tinctorius, and raised the offspring into adulthood. The resulting offspring looked very similar to another species as I recall, Phyllobates vittatus or some similar color combination. He updated the thread with pictures and little notes, and his reason for the crossbreed was out of sheer interest I think. He ended up culling the frogs when they were sub-adults.

I totally understand the reason behind culling such an animal from a hobbyists view(hybridization outside of nature is a no-no, mucking of the bloodline if one such animal was traded or sold, etc) but to let them grow into fully-functioning little froggies, eating and living just to be killed later, for the sake of curiosity, not even under the guise of scientific interest. That made me sad, and as moral as I get with animals, it was kind of evil. They didn't choose the life they were born into.(as much as an animal, especially captive can willingly "choose" anything ) Moral of this story? Breed and cull responsibly.

I believe its fine as long as its done out of necessity and done in a humane way..... Live feeding and culling.

Us humans like to pick and choose which animals are OK and not OK to kill... We feed live intelligent enough animals to reptiles etc.. yet your considered cruel if you feed an animal that isn't considered a 'feeder animal'. Simply saying its wrong because you consider the animal a 'pet' or because you like it doesnt exactly make it wrong if its necessary.

I keep fish and iv had many spawns... I mostly never raise the fry because i cant be sure if i can sell them all and iv no idea if they are all going to good homes. Normally they get eaten by other fish but for livebears like guppies who breed constantly iv no problem feeding my large fish the fry (Its very quick). If i want to raise the fry i will pick the strongest healthiest ones to keep and give the others away free to good homes. I of course will cull a large portion and only raise a few becuase its impossible to find a home for hundreds of fish!

We all have personal limits as to what we feed or are willing to cull.... Personally i only feed bugs and unwanted fry. I really don't think there is a limit as long as the animal isn't killed out of cruelty or entertainment... It should be done out of necessity. Necessity means that the animal will starve if not fed live food or if you are unable to care for the animal and it would suffer if not put down or are portion of them culled. Its far more cruel to raise a bunch of animals which wont be 100% cared for and will suffer.

I dont even stick by my own beliefs regarding live feeding =D.... I do enjoy my fish hunting live bugs and worms... But im still against other animals been fed live (We pick and choose =D)!!!!

As far as Axolotl go i think cull the eggs before they hatch if you dont want them.... once they hatch i see nothing wrong with culling deformed once.. I got a little off topic but someone mentioned feeding live baby axolotls so a rambled on about live feeding too....

Just my 2c! Interesting Topic =D