Question: N. viridescens and o. pyrrhogaster questions

Hi,
Let me start by saying that although I am new to this site I am not new to critter keeping. I have been keeping and breeding all sort of fish for more decades than care to admit at this time. I have also kept and bred both n. viridescens and pyrrhogaster, but that was a long time ago.

About 25 years ago when, as the phrase goes "I was young, stoned and stupid" the foursome of n. viridescenes I got from my lfs accidently bred. Without knowing near enough, too many eggs hatched, too many tadpoles later, I set up a baby wading pool to house them all. Then, too many morphed, I felt forced to set up another wading pool created to minic a forest floor, complete with "creek" empting into a pond. With endless food stuff (pill bugs, spring tail, red wigglers, etc) around 150 of them matured into eastern spotted newts. I sold or gave away about 50 of them, the remainder I released into a secluded area where I had seen them previously. They are native to part of Pennslvania. It was too labor intensive for me to every want to do it again.

Fast forward.... about 8 months ago I got six red efts, who are being housed in what I call a "dry terrarium" (30 gallon tank), one without a body of water or moving water but with only small bowls of water. My questions are: How do I tell when they are ready to be set up into a more aquatic environment without setting up a semi aqatic tank? Is there a way to tell? Their tails are beginning to flaten and their color is starting to fade and is becoming orange-ish with a green-ish over cast. Previously it was easy to tell - they just spent more and more time in the creek and pond.

Next: o. pyrrhogaster: About 6 months ago I got 3 fire belly newts and set them up in a semi aquatic 35 gallon hex tank. Other than the first week, I have not seen them in the water area. I had always known fire belly newts to be almost completely aquatic. They are feed well on flightless friut flies and red wigglers, seem healthy and happy although not active, instead spending most of their days staying in small provided caves (from Even Rosethal), only venturing out to feed. The temperatures with this enclosure are between 67 to 72 depending where and when the reading is taken and humidity is around 80%. Is it normal for them to spend all their time on land? Hidden? Although I have had fire bellies before, these are acting very differently from the last ones.

Please see the enclosures of each (I am not very technological, and therefore the pictues are not in a good order). Also, I have increased the water level in the 35 hex to almost level with the land and have removed the silly turtle. These pictures were each taken with a couple days of construction. Now the plants have grown it.

Thank you

I can't comment on the N. viridescens.
Regarding the C. pyrrhogaster - is the first photo their tank? I think there is too much water movement. They prefer completely still water and the current might be the reason they are staying on land.
I assume they are adults, which means that in the right conditions, they will only occasionally come to rest on land. A heavily planted tank with little islands and little or no current is an ideal set-up for them. (Your tank looks beautiful but once the newts are in the water, they won't really use the land much and it's better to give them as much water as they can get.)
Check out the caresheet for this species and the Setup ideas.

Thank you for your reply.

Although with the increased water level to me is seems that there is not much water movement, but to a newt....I will shut down the little water pump completely and see if that will intrice the newts into the water. (first and third pictures are of the fire belly newt tank, a 35g hex, water depth approximately 6-7 inches)

Yes, they are all adults. In fact one of the three was given to me by my lfs because it was missing a couple of limbs. Now, about 4 weeks later, there has been for regrowth. So I do know that something is working as it should. But I would certainly like to see them be more active.

Thank you again

150 efts is an impressive number, well done. However i worry about the ones you released. I do hope that the parents came from the same area where their offspring was eventually released. Otherwise there might have been a genetic contamination event :S
I don´t mean to be negative, but also keep in mind that releasing animals into the wild is likely to be illegal (although i ignore the specific laws in your state). It is a very delicate matter that should only be undertaken by the apropriate organisms.
I know you said you don´t intend to repeat the experience, but i think it´s an important point to make anyway.

As to the inclination of efts to become aquatic, it´s a complicated matter. Generally speaking, for the subspecies N.v.viridescens, efts don´t enter the water until they become sexually mature. Sexual maturity can be seen in the development of secondary sexual characteristics (particularly easy in males). In the case of this species it tipically includes the animal loosing the red coloration and becoming generally greener. There could be lots of exceptions to this. My personal experience, although extremely limited, was that the animals can be enticed to become aquatic as long as they are adult size even if they are not yet mature (in my case maturity became obvious shortly after becoming aquatic).
The safest way is indeed to offer options. If they have easy access to water and its quality is optimal, they´ll decide when they ar ready. Forcing them is a risky businness. Some individuals may do well and adapt, but others may drown.

Are you sure they are pyrrhogaster? You refered to them as O.pyrrhogaster and i´m not sure what you mean. The correst name for the japanese firebelly newt is Cynops pyrrhogaster. Could it be that the "o" was for orientalis (as in the chinese firebelly newt -Hypselotriton orientalis-)and you had confused them?
If you upload a picture i´m sure we could help you identify them and eliminate the doubt.
Either way, both species are completely (or almost) aquatic in captivity given apropriate husbandry. Like Eva, i would recommend a larger volume of water, for 3 animals, a 20 gallons would be nice. You can eliminate the filter and therefore the current, by using large amounts of live plants. This is a good idea all around. The plants will offer surface and oxygen for the bacteria and also take organic compounds from the water themselves, plus both species of newt love to have dense areas of vegetation. Having thick mats of plants close to the surface greatly increases the chances of the animals being comfortable enough to become fully aquatic.
The fact that your animals have been terrestrial for 6 months almost conclusively points to water quality issues being the culprit. If you increase the volume of water to a bare minimum of 10 gallons (i´d highly recommend a larger volume), eliminate the current, add aquatics plants, cycle it properly and make sure the temperatures are apropriate, the animals will become aquatic and they´ll never look back xD As Eva said, they seldom venture on land for brief periods of time, monstly at night and during breeding season (females scaping overenthusiastic males), and for that you only need to provide at most a small piece of floating cork bark.

I agree with Azhael that it sounds like these may be Chinese firebellies (H. orientalis) and not japanese fire bellies (C. pyrrhogaster). The orientalis are the current mass-imported pet shop newt; pyrrhogaster are very rarely in pet shops these days.

I agree on not releasing them into the wild any more - although 25 years ago this likely wasn't illegal and many of us who have been around long enough are guilty of doing this "back then" lol. In fact, I still have some newt and herp books from the 1980ies that specifically recommend releasing your offspring into local ponds to give local populations a "boost". Nowadays, that would be frowned upon and probably illegal...

oh and Az - he says the fire bellies are in a 35 gallon tank - that should be plenty big. Were you thinking he said 35 liters?

good luck with your critters

Oh, no, i did understand that the tank is 35 gallons. However the tank seems to me to be a very tall one with relatively low surface (although i may be getting confussed by the last picture), so i´m not sure how many actual gallons of water there are in the tank, although i´m inclined to think not enough, because otherwise i don´t think the animals would have remained terrestrial for so long (unless the volume of water is large but the parametres are nevertheless terrible). Based on the assumption that there potentially was insufficient water volume, i mentioned the 20 gallons for 3 animals as an indication of what would be recomendable in case the volume in that tank was smaller.
Rivkah will hopefully provide more information.

It´s true that 25 years ago it probably wasn´t even illegal, and as i said, it wasn´t my intention to be negative or accusing (i´ve done my share of crimes against nature when i was younger). I still think it was necessary to mention the problems with such actions, even if as Rivkah said, he won´t be doing anything like that again. Call me paranoid xDD It was a preventive commentary.

I've got a little group of red efts. They have been gradually going from orange to an olive green over the last 3 or so months. They are now uniformly olive greeny coloured, so tomorrow I'm moving them from their terrestrial set up to a semi aquatic one. I probably could have moved them sooner, but thought it was best to err on the side of caution and have been dithering about it since January

Azhael said:

Oh, no, i did understand that the tank is 35 gallons. However the tank seems to me to be a very tall one with relatively low surface (although i may be getting confussed by the last picture), so i´m not sure how many actual gallons of water there are in the tank, although i´m inclined to think not enough, because otherwise i don´t think the animals would have remained terrestrial for so long (unless the volume of water is large but the parametres are nevertheless terrible). Based on the assumption that there potentially was insufficient water volume, i mentioned the 20 gallons for 3 animals as an indication of what would be recomendable in case the volume in that tank was smaller.
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got it, dude, and you're right that the water volume is what ultimately counts apologies- Molch hasn't had her chocolate today and is a bit slow in da head.

Lol, there´s nothing to apologize for except maybe that you´ve made me crave some chocolate! I probably should have explained myself better in my first post, or at least mentioned why i think the volume might be insufficient.

First let me thank everyone for their responses. Let me try to reply and if I miss something, please ask.

To put everyone's minds at ease... the release of the mature n. viridescens was the first and only time that I released anything into the wild. I also remember "back then" and the advise to release "extras" back to the wild. But "we" know more now than we did then -- it is never a good idea to release any captive animal into the wild regardless of whether or not that particular animal in native to that area. Think about what is happening in Florida where too many captive "pets" has been delibertedly or accidently released and have thrived, out completed, or are wiping out the wild populations. Also there is the issue of disease that captive animals might carry to which wild populations might not have an immunity.

The period that I raised that many n. viridenscens is what I call 'the time I lost my mind'. I raised gallons of alge and "green water" to feed the tadpoles and I got blissers from all the shoveling to keep the red efts in bugs, worms and food stuffs. Feeding the adults was the easy part. Since the release of that group, I had ventured back several times over the years to check on my "kidlets". I was surprised to see so many n. viridenscens. I am not saying that they were the ones that I raised, but rather, I was surprised how easy it was to find them.

Previously with a population that large admittedly, I did not pay that close of attention. The wading pool (about 125 gallons) had a creek which emptied into a "pond" of about 30-35 gallons. They made their own choice. With this small population of only 6, I do find that I watch much more closely. I think I understand your advise might simply be to set up another style of enclose which would minic what I had before, complete with a water feature so that the newts with move to water when they choose. So.... I am not setting up another wading pool..... how much land vs. how much/how deep the water area. Would the 35gallon hex tank (18'x18'x24'H, total water volume of about 12 gallons, with 7 gallons of it available... approximately 1/2 land and 1/2 water as viewed from above) be appropriate for the 6 red efts? I generally sparely populate (I did see a terrestrial setup in the gallery section: a 15g housing 16 red efts vs my 6 living in a 30g).

Yes, I do confused Chinese and Japanese fire belly newts -- one is smooth skinned the other rough skinned.... mine are rough skinned. I have a mental block -- which is which... smooth is Japanese, rough is Chinese or is it the other way around?

I use cork flats to divide the land from the water. Behind the cork wall is hydroballs to a level of about 7 inches, then window screening, then soil. This set up is not water tight therefore the overall water volume is about 12 gallons, with about 7 gallons over and available for the newts to use. It is odd that an aquatic animal not given enough water would opt to be terrestrial instead of using what water it has available. "I want 10g, and am given 7g, therefore I will hang out on land" -- strange. As for the water quality -- I do continue to feed frozen bloodworms once or twice a week to try to entice the newts into the water, because of that I do regular weekly water (50-60%) changes to maintain water quality. The set up was up and running, housing 6 white clouds for about 2 months before I added the newts. The white clouds were recently moved to another tank. Currently there is one female killiefish also living in the 35 hex.

Since the first response I have shut down the pump and added a handful of floating plants (hornwort). I will give the newts another week or so before setting up another tank for them. They seem healthy just not what I remember, or understand to be, acting normally.

So this all leads to another group of questions: Admittedly I set up the 35hex then decided what to put in it.... I know.... backwards. I am open to any and all suggestions as to what would live happily in the 35hex the way it is set up (I don't want to tear it down). The pump can run in as little as 2 inches of water, with waterfall, maxium water depth is around 7-8 inches with creek, or no moving water at all.

As a life long fish person, I have too many tanks set up and too many still waiting. If need be I will make the necessary adjustment.

Again, If I forgot to answer something, please ask again.

Oh, by the way 'Rivkah' is Rebekah (to most people: Rebecca), I am female. Most people can't pronounce 'rebekah' either and I have been called all sorts of things throughout the years.

Thank you all again for all your responses and I look forward to your suggestions.

rivkah said:

The period that I raised that many n. viridenscens is what I call 'the time I lost my mind'. I raised gallons of alge and "green water" to feed the tadpoles and I got blissers from all the shoveling to keep the red efts in bugs, worms and food stuffs.

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ok, that put a smile on my face - I remember the old old days, anno 1985 or so, when my routine went as such:
come home from school, throw school bag in corner (to hell with homework), grab lunch, go out into the woods w. dog and till evening shovel dirt for worms and turn over logs to collect bugs for my critters. I'd spend hours upon hours doing that; it became the defining activity of my childhood lol.

the skin texture is not always a reliable distinguishing characteristic. Orientalis can be rougher or smoother. Orientalis are, however, quite a bit smaller and have a more rounded tail tip. See here:

Caudata Culture Articles - Firebelly

yea... very much the same. 1985! ouch!! For me it started in 1965. That was the year I found a opossum, actually thinking that it was a mouse (hey I was a little kid)... "Mom can I keep it?" the first of hundreds of times she was to hear that. After a couple of days in the house, I returned it to where I had found it. And with tear in my eye watched it scurry away.

I took it all one step further; by the time I was 10 I had 10-12 fish tanks and was breeding several species of fish, even working on developing a new color strain of angelfish. At 13 I started working at a local pet store to feed my "addiction", and "borrowing" more tanks, equipment and fish. I am 5'10" tall and joke that I was born this tall so always appeared older and could get away with it. And, before you ask... there is not an athletic bone in my body, I did not play any sport, unless you consider chess a sport.... yes... geek and proud of it!

Because of the heart wrenching experience with the oppossum... I learned... I don't do anything without a book first. I plan my next acquistion for months, driving friends and family to the brink of maddness.

As soon as the newts leave their respective caves to grab food I will take another look making sure to check the tips of their tails. And at that time I will try to get some decent pictures. I don't want to force them from their "home".

If you are thinking of re-doing their home or moving them, I would recommend creating more floor space (long tank is better than a deep one). Well planted tank with some floating plants, cycled water, no current and a small land area should hopefully entice them into water. You could also perhaps lower the water level at first so they would feel secure and then raise it once they are comfortable swimming around. Places where the can hang out close to the surface are also helpful. I managed to make my juveniles aquatic by removing completely dry land - they just had plants and rocks on which they could sit partially submerged. They didn't seem bothered and started swimming after a couple of days. I am not sure if it would be a good idea to follow this path with adults, though. I have a feeling that if they are healthy (and they sound as if they are), moving them into a more aquatic environment with less land should be ok as long as the water parameters are good..

Thank you Evut for the suggestion. I do have not just too many tanks set up, but also several crying out to be filled.

I have an empty 20gallon long tank (30"x12"x12") that is ready for something... and I can also find a place. I will give the fire bellies a week (I have shut down the pump, so that there is no water movement, and added lots of plants).

So, if I do move them to the 20long tank, do you have any suggestions as to what would live happily in the 35 hex tank as it is set up? Or... how deep is too deep for the fire bellies? I an toying with the idea of removing the soil (which is only about 2-3 inches deep) re-filling that area with gravel, and planting it, top and ledge, with aquatic plants. If I did such, it would give the newts a swallow area on top and half the tank of approximately 7-8 inches deep and a deep end of around 16-17 inches. How deep is too deep for them? And do you believe that such a set up would also work for them? I do understand that longer is better than deeper.

Thank you again

It´s not a great idea to use gravel, and worse yet to use large amounts of it.
On one hand, gravel carries a risk of being accidentally swallowed, with varying consequences (usually bad), on the other, it traps enormous amounts of debris and difficultates feeding.
When deep layers of gravel are used, as in the picture of your tank, to create slopes or terrestrial areas, the accumulation of debris can create pockets of anaerobic conditions in which nasty bacteria flourish. This is potentially dangerous to the point of being lethal in extreme cases. At the least it can mess up the water chemistry.
If you are going to use a substrate (which is not required), consider fine sand. It´s a far better choice than gravel and as long as used in thin layers (an inch or less) is entirely problem free.
I would strongly recommend taking a look around the enclosures and vivaria section and check out some of the wonderful examples of ideal tank set-ups (both Molch and Eva have inspiring posts worth reading).
Also, before deciding what their future is going to be like, make sure to read a lot and become acquiented with their needs and care. Take your time, if they are terrestrial but healthy, you´ve got all the time in the world.

Do you clean the left-over bloodworms? They decompose very fast producing ammonia which may be one of the reasons why your animals refuse to enter the water.

There´s not really such a thing as too deep. You could offer them a 1m deep water area and they would be fine. However, it´s a very good idea to keep a certain ratio between depth and surface area. If your 20 gallon is of standard dimensions, it will be perfectly fine. Take advantage of the full volume, you just need something like a small piece of cork bark for the newts to rest if they want to, the rest can all be water (and plants, lots of them).

Again, make sure to read as much as you can, there is a wealth of information around the forums. And good luck!

I have (and bred) had fire belly newts before keeping them in more of a "standard" set up for them, larger body of water but with a similar planted island area. So keeping newts is actually not new to me. These particular ones, the first in almost 10 years, simply act drastically differently then any I had previously, or any that I am aware of and I just don't get it.

As for the depth of the gravel.... there is only a small "dusting" on the bottom in the water area, and gravel size large enough that the newts could not swallow it. I think you might be thinking about what is behind the cork flats that separate the water from the land.... there is approximately 7-8 inches of hydroballs (little round clay pellets) to take up space and keep down the overall weight. It is also useful allowing for a larger water volume, thereby helping to maintain proper water quality and humidity perameters. Because of the open space caused by these clay balls, water flows freely throught them, also allowing for beneficial baterial to grow, basically becoming a filter system (similar to a tickle filter). I agree that depth of gravel (7-8 inches), especially small grain gravel, has little to no benefit because in will compact too tightly to allow for proper water flow.

When I was trying to entice the newts into the water using frozen bloodworrm I also had a female killiefish living there who would eat most of the worms over the period of 24 hours, and I maintained a strict water change schedule to maintain water quality. Being only 12 gallons in total doing weekly 50-60% water changes (making sure to clean the gravel (again, just a dusting) is quick and easy. I have given up on the bloodworms, currently only feeding dusted fruit flies and red wiggers. there is also a thriving community of springtails living in the soil (I suppliment the springtails' food with the occassional grains of rice)

I have shut down the pump, added lots of floating plants... but still no interest on the part of the newts to enter the water.

In the coming week(s) I will be setting up another tank for them with a greater water volumne but still with a planted island. I am working out the details using a 20gallon bowl (yes, bowl), that is 24"hx24"w with an 8inch opening but since it is totally round the newts would have to to be able to hang on upside down to be able to crawl out.

I appreciate your input. I believe that is no one right way, but there are certainly lots of wrong ways to house our little charges. Regardless of how many years one has kept these creatures there is always more to learn.

Again, thank you