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shruti
2nd July 2012, 06:41
Hi everyone,

I have got 4 T. verrucossus caught from the wild by myself as I am doing research on them.Out of four, two are sub adults and two adults- one gravid female and one non gravid female. The gravid female is feeding well on the earth worms but other three are not feeding. I have been traveling for my field work and now I want to have a temporary setup for them. Guwahati is very hot and the room temperature is 30-32 degree celsius. I am keeping ice packs in the water to bring down the temperature. I think they might be in stress and so they are not feeding. What is the best diet for the sub adults?

When I will be traveling how best I can transport them with me?

Need help!

mr cyclone
2nd July 2012, 17:55
Put them back?,I dont want to offend you but why have you collected them if you can't look after them?

TylototritonGuy
2nd July 2012, 18:38
I am sorry but I do have to agree with Mr Cyclone, It's no good keeping them if you can't provide the right care they need, even if its not something you can control easily. If your having them in a Temporary Setup to study them, they aren't going to exhibit any natural behavior like they would in the Wild (if thats what your researching them for). Also, no amount of Ice will help them simulate their natural Temperature Range, the most they experience in the wild is 25'c. They are probably not eating because they are stressed out and not used too human contact as much either :/ I do insist that you put them back in the wild where you found them, as you cant just simply drive around or traveling with them as they will stress out even more.

If you going to study them, do so with the correct requirements they need to survive or study them in the wild :/ I am sorry though but being in a hot place in the country is just going to make them stress out even more, they can survive hotter temps but not for very long...

FrogEyes
3rd July 2012, 01:53
You could purchase a water chiller, attach a hose and valve to the tap, and just trickle feed cold water through the terrarium.

I don't know what options are available in India, but Hagen/Exo-Terra markets a refrigerator style incubator which has a cooling function and an automobile adapter, which means it can be used to keep things cool while inside a running vehicle, or anywhere there is a fixed power supply. Likewise, electrical food coolers are available here for camping/travelling. Some have automobile adapters, some have wall plugs, many have drains. With one of these you could have a temporary habitat which is insulated from the heat and can be cooled. Without power, a perforated container of ice could gradually melt and exit through the drain.

Barring all that, you could send them to me :>

Last I read Indian law, it wasn't legal to commercialize wildlife, but I don't know about exporting as a donation ;)

shruti
3rd July 2012, 08:16
Thank you all for your reply,

I agree that its not the best way to go about. I am not studying their captive behavior exclusively but for my study I have to collect samples for morphometric and DNA analysis. So instead of killing them and put them in alcohol I thought if I can keep them alive for long. One female is feeding fine that means she is doing ok and will survive. Other three I will try to keep them alive as long as I can. I will get the temporary cooling system and try out if it works.

@FrogEyes: What you will donate me in return? ;)

shruti
3rd July 2012, 09:55
Another female started feeding... Yippee! :D

What is the diet for the juveniles/Sub-adults?
They are not taking the earthworms...:confused:

Jan
3rd July 2012, 11:19
Have a look at this article: Caudata Culture Species Entry - Tylototriton verrucosus (http://www.caudata.org/cc/species/Tylototriton/T_verrucosus.shtml)

Jennewt
3rd July 2012, 14:50
I would try crickets or other insects or grubs.

ummi
3rd July 2012, 20:59
my Vrrucosus are all grown up completely in the water, the first 8 weeks they get pounds of Daphnia, then pounds of red mosquito larvae, Then I cut foliage worms and frozen octopus. The water level is 12 cm and the temperature was 22 - 26 they love warm temperatures, this also works with your temperatures, after 6 months they measured 13cm,

FrogEyes
7th July 2012, 05:58
Ummi - your animals look more like T.shanjing. Type specimens of T.verrucosus and those from Nepal, Bhutan, most of Myanmar, and India look nothing like yours. Many or all of those populations probably would do better with much cooler temperatures, as some of them spend many weeks per year under snow, and all are found at altitude. Darjeeling and Sikkim have long been favorite tourist spots because they are great places to escape the summer heat of the lowlands. I doubt these animals would do well under conditions as warm as 26 or higher.

Animals in Thailand are almost certainly T.shanjing and an undescribed species. Animals further west (T.verrucosus) look like these:
http://zsienvis.nic.in/month_prev/prev_topic5.htm (Darjeeling, West Bengal, India)
Salamander from Bhutan (http://www.indianaturewatch.net/displayimage.php?id=118673) (Bhutan)

T.shanjing:
Tylototriton verrucosus | Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/73879198@N00/2683518627/) (Chiang Mai, Thailand)
http://www.caudata.org/forum/f1173-advanced-newt-salamander-topics/f1159-fieldwork-fieldherping/f1160-field-herping-accounts/49369-tylototriton-verrucosus-wild-plus-other-amphibs-n-thailand.html (Chiang Mai, Thailand)
Same species, same place.

All the ones resembling T.shanjing to one degree or another seem to come from within the range of T.shanjing [the only source which is exporting]. T.shanjing is quite variable, but it should be noted that there are animals ascribed to T.verrucosus, in Yunnan, which may be of hybrid descent or a new species. Coloration also varies greatly between terrestrial and aquatic life phases.

ummi
9th July 2012, 08:00
there are certainly a large variability in Verrucosus. Verrucosus I care now for over 25 years and I had through the years, black, bright, dark, with greenish placement (depending on the light ).
The behavior was the same for all: They love the water (fully aquatic), eating as a hobby, tail wagging, many small eggs, breeding in the water, all in the water ...I have raised hundreds - there are Verrucosus. Shanjing are less than 10 percent of them in the water -
This is just my experience - there are certainly a large variability,

FrogEyes
12th July 2012, 04:15
There actually seems to be very little variation in T.verrucosus. Just a lot of variation which is being LABELED T.verrucosus. From extreme western Yunnan [type locality] west, they're all dark brown and have prominent warts, similar to the one in DrWill's photo which includes a topotypic specimen. It's more likely that captive variants represent T.shanjing [original description noted it to be variable], T.pulcherrima [not likely to be a subspecies, but the very limited data is inaccessible at the moment], an undescribed species, or hybrids. Basically, there are multiple species in the only country which exports any quantities, and of those, T.verrucosus is only found in a very small and remote location. Everything else comes from within the range ascribed to T.shanjing, or from countries which do not export. This is no slight on you, it's a systemic issue which arises from decades of confusion which still hasn't been clarified. Basically, the only reason these animals are labeled as T.verrucosus is because everyone previously labeled them such. This is the logical fallacy of argumentum ad populum - just because everyone says it's so, doesn't make it true.

Another fallacy would be argumentum ad verecundiam. Roughly translated, just because *I* say it's so, also doesn't make it true ;) However, I refer back to the data as much as I can, and only hope I interpret them properly.

edit - I'd bet on your animals being multiple species.

FrogEyes
12th July 2012, 04:32
A further note on temperatures...

I was digging for geographical data, and read this with interest but little surprise:
Kunming - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kunming)
Remember that temperatures typically decrease with altitude or latitude, and Kunming is essentially surrounded by at least seven species of Tylototriton, all associated with montane forests...

Kunming has one of the mildest climates in China, characterised by short, cool dry winters with mild days and crisp nights, and long, warm and humid summers, but much cooler than the lowlands. The weather never gets very hot in summer; the temperature has exceeded 30 C (86 F) only on a handful of occasions. However, freak snowfalls occur in occasional winters...average highs are around 15 C (59 F) in winter and 24 C (75 F) in summer...with an annual sunshine period of 2,250 hours and an annual frost-free period of 230 days. Extreme temperatures in the city have ranged from −7.8 C (18 F) to 32.2 C (90 F).
Those are for the capital city. Expect shaded montane locations to have much lower highs, and lower lows. I equate 230 frost-free days to 135 [roughly 1/3 year] days WITH near-freezing temperatures. These animals virtually never have to endure 30C, and likely evade 25C quite easily by hiding in damp shaded locations. Don't mistake tropical locations for hot habitats.

ummi
21st July 2012, 09:33
It is the responsibility of scientists to take care of the species description. That is admirable and I am very grateful for you wise people.
Important for the hobby keepers is in the first place the keeping.
"argumentum ad verecundiam" - refers only to the keeping in that what I wrote, when a Shanjing sudden is named Verrucosus, one night is enough to drown him...
Rarely someone writes how his animals are perished and 99 percent are keeping errors,
It is important to me to breed a specific of success without knowing the exact scientific name, than to kill an animal and to know the scientific name - I hope you understand me FrogEyes - I have naturally a lot of respect from your remarks and may only learn of it

shruti
21st July 2012, 17:31
It is important to me to breed a specific of success without knowing the exact scientific name, than to kill an animal and to know the scientific name Well I respect your thoughts but without knowing what animals your are keeping how can you justify breeding? I know its more like from the hobbyist point of view but as a researcher I think we do need to know the species. Other wise call a salamander a salamander why need to know if its a fire bellied or himalayan?

ummi
22nd July 2012, 20:22
I agree