What do you guys think?

Stupidity or greed ?

Quite an interesting specimen there.
I'm not perfect at translating euro to USD, but I think the price is just fine.

DeCypher said:

Quite an interesting specimen there.
I'm not perfect at translating euro to USD, but I think the price is just fine.

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This "special" axolotl is twice the going rate for a private sale at that size. I have no problems with people keeping a deformed axolotl as a non breeding pet, in fact I have done so myself but to try and pass one off onto other people who may breed it is potentially compounding the problem of poor quality axolotls which exists in the UK. Axolotls lay hundreds of eggs per batch, in a natural environment most would not survive but those which do are going to be healthy and of good quality , the lack natural selection or selective culling by many people who breed them is short sighted and damaging the species in captivity.
I have sent this link to the seller to give them the opportunity to reply but as far as I am concerned trying to capitalize on damaged axolotl is outrageous, though I am sure the response will be that the cost of purchase is the cost of raising the axolotl to that size, which begs the question "why wasn't it culled?"

I have no idea what they even mean when they describe the disability. It has a twisted spine, but also half a body? What exactly even makes it disabled? Like it can't swim?

Anyway, some people just don't like culling, although, this person also shouldn't be trying to make a profit on an animal that is not up to standard.

Also, Euro? £ is pounds.

That is (at the current exchange rate) $30, but in general I take a 0.5 approach to currency so lets say $40.

Why would anyone pay £20 for a deformed axolotl when you can buy a healthy one for £10.

They claim it's "disability" does not affect its health... how do they know? How do they know it's life span will not be greatly decreased? How do they know that once it matures it won't develop other health issues?

Absurd

P.S. ian, love the signature!

I have one EXACTLY the same. Didn't realise he was 'special' until he was around 4 months old as we thought he was just a slow grower compared to his brothers and sisters. He's now in a tank on his own as we didn't think it would be acceptable to charge someone for him. I didn't realise I could charge extra for him, I should go stick him on Ebay. £50 starting price sounds fair... Anyone interested?!

Loobylou said:

I didn't realise I could charge extra for him, I should go stick him on Ebay. £50 starting price sounds fair... Anyone interested?!

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Errrrrrrr........ No! I am not attacking somebody's humanity for caring for an unfortunate animal, what I object to is poor quality axolotls being passed on to others (at a premium rate) which may then breed and pass on their crappy genes, downgrading the gene pool of an animal already suffering from excessive inbreeding.

I've removed the link as I don't think we should be giving ads like that any extra publicity. Feel free to continue discussing the moral dilemma of selling deformed animals!

Mark said:

I've removed the link as I don't think we should be giving ads like that any extra publicity. Feel free to continue discussing the moral dilemma of selling deformed animals!

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LOL, fair enough, I was planning on swinging the conversation towards selective culling of axolotls , it was the next step in my cunning plan to encourage responsible breeding. I see to many poor quality axolotls on sale in the uk, the add which Mark very responsibly removed (though I was hoping the seller would receive some more abusive messages) is not uncommon, deformed axolotls that are advertised as "special" pop up on a regular basis. There can be no justification for passing these substandard axolotls on to others, axolotls lay hundreds of eggs and i am sure the number of eggs laid per year exceeds demand, i have advertised free eggs several times this year and have received very little response , so why do people insist on selling deformed animals when there is more than enough axolotls around to meet the need ? unless of course they are chasing cash. I asked the question at the start of this thread "greed or stupidity ?" I think it is probably both.

xxianxx said:

what I object to is poor quality axolotls being passed on to others (at a premium rate) which may then breed and pass on their crappy genes, downgrading the gene pool of an animal already suffering from excessive inbreeding.

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This is basically what´s happening with the entire axolotl market. Possitive selection is virtually nonexistent.

People are astonishingly ready to ignore or even promote (as we see here) deformities, dissorders and an assortment of other issues. I´m constantly gobsmacked at what people are prepared to consider acceptable. Terrible things are seen as cute, or special and even as highly desirable!!
I fail to understand how people who like to loudly declare their love for a specific animal are incapable of seeing that their actions are causing suffering to the very animals they claim to love and their future offspring (but then again, if it happens with dogs, why not everything else). Rather than promote the healthiest individuals, people promote the runts, the aberrants and the malformed....all the while grinning maniacally because they love their animals so muuuuuuch....
It´s surreal.

Azhael said:

Possitive selection is virtually nonexistent.

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You will be happy to hear that I raise wildtypes from unrelated parents and use deformed and runt axolotls as feeders or let them get eaten by larger siblings in outside tanks. Unfortunately I am an exception to the norm and I get fed up of people asking for "pink" axolotls, I do have a leucistic because she needed rehoming but I would prefer to see wild types become the standard form available.

Good on ya Ian. I kinda want to "back breed" some wildtypes myself.

I personally think it will be a sad day if wild types are the standard.

They'll never be standard. But the original is always best you know. If you want a nice pretentious novelty pet a color morph is your friend.

Where I am the wilds seem to be snapped up first. I generally cull deformed guys, or leave them to get eaten by larger siblings. The only reason I didn't with the 'dwarf' as I call him is that the kids spotted him and they're big softies when it comes to any animals. They won't even let me feed the axolotls the guppies we bred for them! Our dwarf won't be going anywhere. I brought him a shallow turtle tank that he just mooches around him. I assume his life would be shortened considerably due to his deformity.

imzunicorn said:

I personally think it will be a sad day if wild types are the standard.

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And this is a perfect example of the insanity that infects the hobby...What a remarkably outrageous commentary...
You´d be sad if the standard were normal animals? Really? Wow.....
I´m sorry you require animals to be deleterious mutants in order to appeal to you and that the natural standard for a species makes you sad.

Ian, i am indeed glad that some people are allowing for some possitive selection. I just wish this was generalized rather than an exception. It´s not ideal, mind you, since the wild-type coloration is no guarantee of fitness, these days, but the future generations of your line will benefit greatly from that selection. Keep it up!

Loobylou, i completely understand. What matters, though, is that that individual doesn´t pass on its genes. I have a C.pyrrhogaster juvenile with a deformed upper jaw. Since despite the deformity it´s doing well and seems to be in no distress whatsoever, i continue to care for it. If it makes it to a good size i´ll try to find him a loving home where it won´t be allowed to reproduce. It can still make an excellent "pet".

Loobylou said:

Where I am the wilds seem to be snapped up first.

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Colour availability can be quite localized in the UK, it appears to be dependent on what your local breeders have available.

First of all, I'm pretty sure any axolotl is considered a novelty pet. I would even argue that any reptile or amphibian is a novelty pet.

Secondly, just because an axolotl is light coloured doesn't mean it's not a normal animal. Sure, it would be less likely to survive, but that doesn't mean it won't. It also doesn't mean that a leucistic or an albino wouldn't naturally occur in the wild. White lions exist just fine in the wild, but I guess they aren't normal lions so they should just go extinct and never exist to begin with. Dogs aren't normal animals that can exist in the wild, therefore we should make wolves standard. What's that you say? Dogs are pets, they aren't meant to be in the wild? Oh, fancy that.

I really don't care what self righteous reason you have for breeding only wild types (and it is self righteous because it's not like you're going to go release these into Xochimilco) but to shun all other colours and people who like these colours because they're "novelty pets" is not right.

I also never said that axolotls had to be anything other than a wild type to appeal to me, those are your words.

They are not novelty pets, they are living creatures, and the practice of cosmetic selection has negative consequences for them. Clearly you care more about the colour of the novelty pet than you care about the animal itself, because if you did, you would find anything that compromises or diminishes the animal´s welfare intolerable.
Sure, a small variation in colour, for example, doesn´t necessarily imply abnormality, but mutations like albinism and leucism are most definitely abnormal for Ambystoma mexicanum. Yes, these mutations can happen espontanously in nature, so what? They are selected against because the phenotype represents a disadvantage or because the mutation is linked to other issues.
Naturally ocurring mutations are subjected to natural selection, mutations in captivity are not.

Of course dogs are pets and are not supossed to be in the wild. And so are captive axolotls. Are you implying that because they are not supossed to be in the wild therefore we can do whatever the hell we want with them?? The entire discussion in this thread is precisely about how our responsability is to guarantee that our captive animals, pets, or however you want to call them, are healthy. Selecting purely on a cosmetic basis doesn´t achieve that, in fact it achieves the exact opposite, it guarantees that the captive populations will be more and more screwed.

You obviously have missed the whole point. Ian is not breeding wildtypes and applying some possitive selection because he is self-righteous or because any of those animals would ever be released. He is doing it because he cares about the well-being of his animals and the future generations.

Well, yes, those are my words, but it was implied in your commentary. If wildtypes being the norm makes you sad, it´s clear that you don´t value them very much, and neither do you value the health and well-being of your animals....well, at least not enough to make it a priority over your cosmetic taste.

And let me clarify that as personal as this message might sound, i´m not attacking you necessarily, but the entire market that cares nothing about the animal´s well-being and it´s all about profit through rarity. What matters is producing new colours and the animals be damned. I would hope that as an axolotl lover you would take a minute to realise what the priority as a responsible keeper should be for you, and that´s the quality of life of your animals. If you (or anyone) trully love these animals it should be very easy to sacrifice the satisfaction of your lust for fancy colours in favor of health and fitness.

imzunicorn said:

I really don't care what self righteous reason you have for breeding only wild types (and it is self righteous because it's not like you're going to go release these into Xochimilco) but to shun all other colours and people who like these colours because they're "novelty pets" is not right.

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I am self righteous because I breed the form of axolotl I prefer ? I dont shun other colours nor other people who prefer them, in fact I have a very nice leucistic female an a melanoid male who i have bred with wildtypes. This thread was started over an add for a deformed axolotl. So before you make inane comments about other people read the thread properly and wind your neck in.