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Enclosure design Assignment

Sean90

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I am currently in my dissertation year at University. One of my assignments is to look at Enclosure design and I have decided to create a hypothetical exhibit using Tylototriton. My idea is to include a number of different subspecies, possibly different genetic lines and maybe life stages with larvae. The enclosure is currently hypothetical but the idea will be presented to the 'board of funding' with drawings, costs, stockings and so on. However, there is loads of other students in my class.

The purpose of this thread is to ask for any suggestions in enclosure design and naturalistic ideas.

My lecturer has suggested creating mixed species exhibits, I have read all the horror stories and wouldn't do this in a real live scenario, as it is hypothetical situation does anyone have any suggestions. For example, mixing Amphibians with reptiles which have seen in some collections.
 

TylototritonGuy

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Well seeing as its all hypothetical as you know I don't really believe in mixing any species due to many risks and dangers that simply won't bode well... Maybe T.verrucosus or T.shanjing mixed with a Chinese Water Dragon (Physignathus cocincinus) seeing as they could possibly come from similar environments....

You should make the enclosure quite high (I dont mean a few feet I am talking something you could walk in and still have a lot of room above your head), that way there is less chance of the two species actually coming across each other (which of course with most things, you want to avoid). However obviously the Water Dragon will be happily spending a fair amount of time in the water or near it at least. Make sure that there is a waterfall system added with several pools on the way down that only the Water Dragon may access in case of water cross contamination.
 
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FrogEyes

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If you look more closely at the species mixing disasters, the vast majority of the incidents involve torrent newts [Pachytriton] of one kind or another, species which are notoriously territorial even with their own kind, quite predatory on other amphibians, and constrained to habitats which are not suitable for most other amphibians anyway.

There are many possible species to mix, but I would always look at habitat, size,diet, and environment first. The lizard above,for instance, would not be suitable for several reasons: it's omnivorous, it's much bigger than the salamanders, and it occurs at lower altitudes, mostly lower latitudes, and warmer climates than the salamanders [although I have seen them survive freezing temperatures outdoors]. Despite toxicity of the salamanders, the lizard could kill them before the poisons make a difference, while the poisons in turn could harm the lizard.

If you want a more authentic mix, try searching for RAPD surveys for a region in which one or more of your target species occurs. Using such survey results will not only give you a more accurate assessment of potentially climatically compatible species, but will give more weight to your assignment results. Those surveys tend to cover all taxa for a region, typically something like a regional park or reserve, and climate data are generally available if not included. If you're lucky, you may also get habitat photos. From the plant surveys [you can also try searching for botanical surveys for particular regions [eg. google: botanical survey yunnan]], you can probably find plenty of substitute species for the rare or local endemics, as there are many groups with wide distributions. Viola for instance has species worldwide, while Pseudotsuga has species in China and the Pacific Northwest. Remember to research species groups and growth requirements though, as commonly available species may not look like or grow like the species surveyed. Australian Viola for instance, may grow as vines, while South American species often form tight rosettes. Rhododendron and Vaccinium may form trees in Asia, while they are shrubs or bushes in northern North America and Vaccinium are epiphytes in the neotropics.

Inverts could include Caridina, local terrestrial isopods, Hyalella, Gammarus, or Asellus/Coecidota, Palaemonetes. If these are not native to the region, they likely at least have relatives or analogs. Contrary to many views, fishes are a good possibility too: there are many small minnows [rasboras, danios, etc], loaches, and gobies which would occur naturally in the same water bodies as some of these salamanders [although more often in mountain streams than ponds]. Cousins of Bufo bufo and Hyla arborea are sympatric with Tylototriton, as are some Hypselotriton, Bombina maxima, and Japalura. Some Hylarana, Odorrana, Rhacophorus, Ptychozoon, and Theloderma can be expected as well. Most of these are not likely to be direct predators on either each other or your target species, although the more species you include, the more factors you have to consider. The main things are: everyone needs to eat, regardless of whether the same species or different, so enough food must be provided for all; and if breeding occurs, fish may eat eggs or larvae...but so will the parents.

Kadoorie Farms has done a number of RAPD surveys in China. As I have reviewed ALL of them for salamander localities, I can tell you that the following surveys/locations all had Tylototriton or Echinotriton recorded: 3*,13, 15, 18, 24, 29, 38

I developed a competition system for non-profit societies to use in the creation of "shows" which catch more of the flavor of dog or cat shows, in which people get together for the sake of an interest in the hobby and NOT simply to buy and sell products. One aspect of the system is the terrarium component. I'm attaching the current standard judging form for terraria, AND the "biotope" form. The latter is used as an add-on bonus for those who wish to not only create a good looking terrarium, but have it as close to a natural habitat as they can manage [that is, day geckos and bromeliads are not acceptable for a biotope]. If your habitats can score highly on both sheets, you're probably close to your goal.

* - a very interesting note. Jianfengling, SW Hainan, has records of both Echinotriton andersoni and Tylototriton hainanensis. The former seems a probable error based on confusion with the latter in an earlier publication. Definite records of Echinotriton come only from the Ryukyu Islands, Taiwan, and Zhejiang. Hainan is distant from these but plausible. Other taxa with multiple species groups have invaded the island repeatedly, to produce multiple related but endemic species. The gecko Goniurosaurus for example, has three species on Hainan, representing two species groups which have colonized the island separately. Hainan and Taiwan are located such that both Yaotriton and Echinotriton could have reached either island naturally.
 

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  • TerrariumScore2012.pdf
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  • BiotopeScoreSpring2009.doc
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jane1187

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Personally I would trawl the forums, especially tylototriton section, and take ideas for your design from member's enclosures. Remember to bear in mind their natural habitat so a fully planted terrarium would be a good choice.

Good luck, I personally teach animal health and husbandry and one of my assignments is identical. My poor students are writing it as we speak (and I kind of wish one of them would choose a salamander!)
 

TylototritonGuy

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I think its a good idea, just one little thing I would like to mention is that Wen Xian Knobby Newts (T.wenxianensis) aren't really that much of an aquatic species. From all of the articles I have seen and peoples opinions/methods of keeping, they are seasonal water dwellers (Mainly for breeding season) and are more terrestrial.
 

TylototritonGuy

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Good luck, I personally teach animal health and husbandry and one of my assignments is identical. My poor students are writing it as we speak (and I kind of wish one of them would choose a salamander!)

Blimey, I wish they used Amphibians in general as a example in College & Uni courses!! lol To many of them use Rabbits, Cats, Dogs, Bearded Dragons and Leopard Geckos as examples in Course Work and it used to get seriously boring.
 

Sean90

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Thanks for all your suggestions.
Like to say thanks to Tylototriton guy for his suggestions, made a mistake of looking at thread for a different species. Got hold of some Studbooks and Husbandry guidelines which I aim to use ensure they are as accurate as possible.
Frog eyes thanks for your suggestions and will look at them surveys. Thanks also for the attachments. I wouldn’t mix species but the lecturer believes it would enhance the exhibit idea to show the biodiversity of area. I am going do much more research as I really want to create an awesome idea, as I know UK collections hold Tylototriton species however rarely display them.
Thanks Jane I am in my final year think the amphibian area is not one of my strong points; so look to do more work with them this year including in my dissertation.
The image is of most of the exhibit which is designed to increase dwell times with a photo area, interaction bubble and an immersion exhibit.
I have a presentation tomorrow to see if I can go forward with my idea.
 

TylototritonGuy

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Just an update. Presented my proposal on Friday and hopefully hear feedback on Friday. Had some free time so created a enclosure design.

Looks really good Sean mate :) Good design there, also the end enclosure is it a glass front to allow people to see in to the more aquatic species?
 

Sean90

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The idea is for T.verrucosus in the last tank with a glass front with a bubble. To allow for a unique interaction for visitors allowing newts to swim up to them.
 

Munfy

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If you wanted to include a lizard I would recomend some type of gecko most geckos are almost completly arboreal have almost no use for standing water and wont get nearly as big as the water dragon. So as long as you had lots of vertical space the gecko would stay high and the tylototriton would stay on the ground making interaction rare and as long as you don't pick anything to large or agressive like a tokay for example there should be anyone trying to eat each other lol. To aid in keeping everyone seperated you could use raised feeding stations for the gecko, maybe follow frogeyes advice and see what geckos occure in the same range. Also the plans look awsome.
 

TylototritonGuy

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If you wanted to include a lizard I would recomend some type of gecko most geckos are almost completly arboreal have almost no use for standing water and wont get nearly as big as the water dragon. So as long as you had lots of vertical space the gecko would stay high and the tylototriton would stay on the ground making interaction rare and as long as you don't pick anything to large or agressive like a tokay for example there should be anyone trying to eat each other lol. To aid in keeping everyone seperated you could use raised feeding stations for the gecko, maybe follow frogeyes advice and see what geckos occure in the same range. Also the plans look awsome.

You would have to find a Gecko species that would be able to go in the exactly the same conditions as the Tylototriton though and not even sure there is any that are available in the Pet trade? Plus I thought that mixing different species wasn't happening anymore? lol
 

Sean90

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At the moment the idea is to create a self sustaining exhibit with keeper areas and so on. Even include its own logo. The first three enclosure will be different Tylos. The last one is to look at increasing dwell times so the bottom tank suggesting T. verrucossus and maybe some fish. The lecturer wishes us to look at a mix species design but I am thinking of designing the enclosure with glass dividers so it will look like a mixed species exhibit but the animals will be seperate.

Thanks for all the help
Shame its only for an assignment but lets me research other designs for me to create with my T.shanjing.
 

Munfy

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Oh sorry I thought that he said the lecturer said multiple species showed more bio-diversity and if the enclosure had enough vertical space for a man to stand inside making a tempurature gradiant that suited both the gecko and amphibian wouldn't be that difficult most tropical geckos dont require tempatures that high especially the nocturnal ones and the tempeture gradiant would help keep the geckos away from the sals as the geckos would prefere to be higher especially if that is where the heat is comming from, and i know they dont share a range at all but crested geckos for example only need a daytime temp in the upper 70s lower 80s, but I only mention them seeing as this is a hypothetical situation. And if i missed somthing and it was decided that there was not going to be any mixing sorry for dissrupting
 

Sean90

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Hi munfy
Thank you for your suggestions. The idea is still in design stages but lecturer would like a mixed species exhibitfor biodiversity.
 

Munfy

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Looks awsome the giant tylo statue's a nice touch, it would make quite the impresive exhibit its a to bad its hypothetical
 

Sean90

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Doing some more research and found turtles from the same habitat range. There is some species of turtle found in the same range. After some more research does anyone think mixing turtles with newts may work. Some collections mix turtles with fish.
 

Bellabelloo

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I wouldn't.. I have kept a couple of different types of turtle, and both would happily eat newts and sals..or anything that went into the water.
 

TylototritonGuy

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Doing some more research and found turtles from the same habitat range. There is some species of turtle found in the same range. After some more research does anyone think mixing turtles with newts may work. Some collections mix turtles with fish.

Like Julia said mate, they are going/would go to town on those Tylos. Tylototriton may do a load of fancy defence stuff, such as Mimicry to avoid getting eaten but in my experience Turtles of any kind really don't care about that sort of stuff and will pretty much eat whatever.
Caudata and fish are both completely different to each other and in the minds of some people, some fish aren't really that much of a concern in comparison to Tylototriton which are, lets all face it Endangered species and are expensive at the best of times, even for the more commonly kept species. I would be more worried about losing a £80 adult wenxianensis individual that's a fantastic and beautiful animal than a Plec that only cost about £5 as a baby which is found in almost every fish collection. (The money really isn't an issue to me, but I am showing you it from a Zoological Societies point of view who wouldn't want to waste that kind of money on 4 or more Tylototriton) That also doesn't mean I wouldn't care about the fish though, I wouldn't mix any species together as its really not fair on the animals, be it a Fish, Mammal, Bird or Herptile.

What you also have to think about is the fact these Salamanders are actually here for breeding programes, adding a potential predator in a enclosure with them could disrupt any breeding that could be taking place. Which could cause future closure of your programme and exhibits due to the fact its not working because:

1. You would possibly be continuously purchasing new mature, adult specimens because they are getting munched on or dying due to stress of being with a predator.
2. You wouldn't actually be getting any breeding occurring due to the stress or if you do get eggs laid they would more than likely be eaten by the Turtles.

I do understand why your asking though as I was asked to do a similar thing myself, but examining bodies simply don't understand the fact that mixing stuff like that really isn't a good idea and hardly ever works. The only mixing I tend to see in Zoo exhibits in the Exotic world is Dendrobatidae which in all honesty makes life a lot easier to make it work. lol They simply don't understand that the wild doesnt have glass walls cutting out a small portion of land out, but either way stick to something more compatible with the Tylototriton if you HAVE to in my opinion that exhibit alone would be a fantastic idea for any Zoo to have.
 

Martin21114

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I have to agree about the turtles. Anything in with them = food. Eventually. My 2 RES waited 2 years to eat Schmegly, the last of about 30 feeder fish. They ate 29 in a few days then left him alone for a couple years and he grew to epic proportions. Then one day he looked tasty and that was that.
 
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