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Subspecies puzzle

froggy

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Hi all

I recently acquired a group of CB Salamandra or varying ages, all from the same breeding population. The animals were supposed to be the nominate form, but the largest of the animals have started to develop a small amount of red on the paratoid glands, which as far as I know the nominate subspecies doesn't have.

All the pictures apart from the last are of one of the larger animals that has developed red colouration. The last one is a much younger animal, which as finally started to recover from emaciation, thanks to Eva's lesser waxworms (thanks Eva!), although it is still very skittish. Apologies for the quality, but they are the best I could do with a mobile phone, little light and uncooperative animals!

Does anyone know if S.s. salamandra can in fact get red on the paratoids, or can anyone hazard a guess as to what these might be if not nominates? Gallaica of some sort? Morenica?

C
 

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benw

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I have some young s s bejarae with red on them like that, and the look suspiciously similar
but they could be galliaca, I don't think they are morenica, general head shape is different .

I have had the odd s s s with red on them, although its fairly uncommon. If they are s s s I think you will find by the new year that the red will have changed colour back to yellow.
 
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Azhael

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Pffff....tricky to say the least...the head shape seems to be typical gallaica, but morenica is not out of the question. The yellow pattern is not particularly typical of gallaica and hints to S.s.salamandra but then again there seems to be some unorganized yellow on the sides which i understand is not typical of S.s.salamandra...but is very frequent in gallaica.
Bejarae is a bit pointless since they seem to be yet another variant of gallaica...which would still make it gallaica...
So as you can tell...i haven´t got a clue :) It´s lovely, though, i can say that much, and congrats on the ex-emaciated one, good job!
 

froggy

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Hi both

Thanks for the input - I wasn't expecting it to be easy to decide! I'll keep watching the red and see if it disappears.

There isn't any yellow stippling on the sides, just solid splotches, Rodrigo - the photo just makes it appear that way.

I'll wait and see how the smaller ones mature - it may be that the large one in the photo is just a freak!

I may even try to get them genetically tested at some point, but I suspect that could become a very involved process!

C
 

Azhael

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It might not have been the best choice of words, Ben. What i meant was that "bejarae" doesn´t appear to actually exist. Some studies are placing the populations that are refered to as "bejarae" right inside gallaica, making the distinction completely fictitious and in terms of phenotypical identification, seemingly pointless. Furthermore "bejarae" forms intergrades with everything it touches in the north which makes many of the so called "bejarae" not even "bejarae" xD It seems likely that bejarae will disappear and gallaica will extend its domains.
I should say that i´m basing this on my admitedly unreliable memory, so take it with a grain of salt.
 
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