Axolotls most likely extinct?!?!?!

Dragonfire

Dragonfire

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Ok so my friend found this article and sent it to me knowing I liked axolotls and they found none in the population estimate!!! Is this really RIP axolotls! I am disappointed in humanity for causing their extinction :( this is a sad time in history.
 
I wouldn't call it an extinction.

Apparently there's a chance they are extinct in the wild because as the article says they didn't find any in the last population survey. (It's not 100% confirmed though) Which is sad, yes, but they're bred so extensively in captivity as pets and for scientific purposes, they're not extinct. They're 'extinct' (possibly) in the wild.

Yes we're to blame for the poor quality of their home lakes in Mexico, but if we didn't breed them they really would be extinct.

So honestly the news doesn't personally bother me that much. (My opinion though, your mileage may vary!) There will still be Axolotls, that's for sure. I like to joke with Zion and lean over in front of his tank and say 'are you extinct'.

EDIT: 'delightful primitive weirdo' oh my goodness XD
 
Why not just link to the less sensationalist Scientific American article?

A new study found no evidence that the axolotl still exists in its sole habitat, a 10-square-mile region outside of Mexico City. Another survey will begin later this month in hopes that the axolotl can still be found. The scientists say it is premature to declare extinction, but things definitely aren’t good.
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This picture makes Xochimilco look like a very serene place:
Ajolotes_Mexico_Xochimilco1.jpeg
 
Kaini said:
I wouldn't call it an extinction.

Apparently there's a chance they are extinct in the wild because as the article says they didn't find any in the last population survey. (It's not 100% confirmed though) Which is sad, yes, but they're bred so extensively in captivity as pets and for scientific purposes, they're not extinct. They're 'extinct' (possibly) in the wild.

Yes we're to blame for the poor quality of their home lakes in Mexico, but if we didn't breed them they really would be extinct.

So honestly the news doesn't personally bother me that much. (My opinion though, your mileage may vary!) There will still be Axolotls, that's for sure. I like to joke with Zion and lean over in front of his tank and say 'are you extinct'.

EDIT: 'delightful primitive weirdo' oh my goodness XD
Click to expand...

Since domestic axolotls are of unknown genetics and very likely to carry an introgression from A.tigrinum/mavortium plus several differences acquired in captivity, people breeding domestic axolotls does absolutely nothing to preserve the species. When the distinct, non-hybrid, non-domesticated wild populations goes extinct, the species will have almost disappeared. Only very, very few lineages of captive axolotls are representative of wild populations, and these lineages are likely in the possession of universities and a few scattered hobbyists. Every other axolotl is not "really" an axolotl.
If Gallus gallus goes extinct in the wild it will be very little consolation that their domestic, hybrid descendants are living by their millions in poultry farms.

It makes me angry that people delude themselves thinking that by breeding "axolotls" in captivity they are doing something of any value whatsoever for the species. Meanwhile the species is likely extinct in the wild, or will be soon and what passes for their representatives in the captive gene pool are a mess.
 
Azhael said:
Since domestic axolotls are of unknown genetics and very likely to carry an introgression from A.tigrinum/mavortium plus several differences acquired in captivity, people breeding domestic axolotls does absolutely nothing to preserve the species. When the distinct, non-hybrid, non-domesticated wild populations goes extinct, the species will have almost disappeared. Only very, very few lineages of captive axolotls are representative of wild populations, and these lineages are likely in the possession of universities and a few scattered hobbyists. Every other axolotl is not "really" an axolotl.
If Gallus gallus goes extinct in the wild it will be very little consolation that their domestic, hybrid descendants are living by their millions in poultry farms.
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True.

But isn't that true of most 'domesticated' animals? The domestic pet dog bears little resemblance to wolves, the farm pig is nothing like a wild boar. It's the way the pet trade works, with breeding for physical attributes and temperament favoured over 'wild' traits. There are now dozens of species that only exist in captive populations - in zoos, as pets and in private hands - that will never be released back into their native habitats, and hundreds more being bred for release to repopulate depleted wild communities.

I know that axies are never going to recover or reclaim their native homes. But I personally would rather see 'pet' axies, albeit inbred and hybridised animals, than none at all.
 
It is how the pet trade works and that´s precisely the problem. If things had been done differently...better....we would now have axolotls trully represented in captivity as well as the domesticated, hybrid pets. We could have had both....Unfortunately people can´t be bothered and all we have left are the domesticated stuff while axolotls are almost completely gone. That´s why it makes me so angry that given that this is the reality that we are in and the way things have played out, people have the nerve to delude themselves thinking that hey, it´s fine because look at all those people "working with axolotls in captivity"...heroes...savers of the species...oh please...bite me. It´s precisely because people couldn´t be bothered to do things properly that now we have virtually no axolotls in captivity as well as in the wild. We didn´t preserve axolotls in the wild and we didn´t preserve axolotls in captivity either...the very least we could do is hang our heads in shame...

And sure, i agree that none at all would be worse, Judie, but let´s not pretend that there weren´t better alternatives to what we have left.

Argh...sorry, i´m just angry and frustrated...
 
There is a colony of "true" axolotls being bred in Mexico City. I don't think it would be too hard to get a big population going, I think it's more a matter of not having much of a place to put them.
 
JessKB said:
There is a colony of "true" axolotls being bred in Mexico City. I don't think it would be too hard to get a big population going, I think it's more a matter of not having much of a place to put them.
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Right, one of their universities are working with WC members.
 
Azhael said:
It is how the pet trade works and that´s precisely the problem. If things had been done differently...better....we would now have axolotls trully represented in captivity as well as the domesticated, hybrid pets. We could have had both....Unfortunately people can´t be bothered and all we have left are the domesticated stuff while axolotls are almost completely gone. That´s why it makes me so angry that given that this is the reality that we are in and the way things have played out, people have the nerve to delude themselves thinking that hey, it´s fine because look at all those people "working with axolotls in captivity"...heroes...savers of the species...oh please...bite me. It´s precisely because people couldn´t be bothered to do things properly that now we have virtually no axolotls in captivity as well as in the wild. We didn´t preserve axolotls in the wild and we didn´t preserve axolotls in captivity either...the very least we could do is hang our heads in shame...

And sure, i agree that none at all would be worse, Judie, but let´s not pretend that there weren´t better alternatives to what we have left.

Argh...sorry, i´m just angry and frustrated...
Click to expand...

I agree with you. But the 'damage' has been done - we needed to isolate true 'wild' bloodlines 50 years ago in order to preserve the species. If I had a time machine I would go back and save the axolotl, the polar bear, the dodo, the rhino........... you get the idea.

You can rant all you like about the human race trashing the planet, destroying ecosystems, causing extinction etc, you can join some eco-group and start a 'save the animals' campaign, you can donate every spare penny you have to some green charity, or you can hang your head in shame on behalf of the human race - but the sad truth remains that we have missed the boat on this one.

If there are some 'wild' axolotl populations left then great - I understand there are plans for release programs somehwere down the line. Maybe they will find/create a suitable home some day and we can have 'real' axies on Planet Earth again.

But in the grand scheme of things the human race is only a temporary tenant on this planet - we will one day disappear just as the dinosaurs did - and other creatures will rise to domination on Planet Earth.
 
Elise said:
Why not just link to the less sensationalist Scientific American article?



This picture makes Xochimilco look like a very serene place:
Ajolotes_Mexico_Xochimilco1.jpeg
Click to expand...

This picture does look serene but it represents a canal system that was once a large clear lake. The axolotl didn't have any predator besides some birds (herons etc) so they were pretty close to the top of the food chain until we introduced larger game fish like tilapia.
That research facility in mexico with the true wild bred axolotls will still have genetic bottle necking because they only collected a small number of axolotls from the lake.
 
Huh, I learned something today. Apologies if I offended anyone with my earlier opinion.
 
Kaini said:
Huh, I learned something today. Apologies if I offended anyone with my earlier opinion.
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I don't think your early opinion was incorrect. The pet trade 'saved' the species like we did with many other species that no longer exist in the wild. Its just when in captivity we tend to breed for aesthetics and temperament over making sure they are genetically diverse. On this forum experienced breeder post that they successful hatched and raised a good percentage of their eggs, in the wild this would rarely happen. All these breeding programs of true wild caught individuals lack any natural stressors that would be found in the wild. Its true they want the population to bounce back but it most likely wont be as strong as the population before the decline.
 
Boomsloth said:
This picture does look serene but it represents a canal system that was once a large clear lake. The axolotl didn't have any predator besides some birds (herons etc) so they were pretty close to the top of the food chain until we introduced larger game fish like tilapia.
That research facility in mexico with the true wild bred axolotls will still have genetic bottle necking because they only collected a small number of axolotls from the lake.
Click to expand...

Hey you read the Wikipedia article and watched the documentary, too!
 
Velice said:
Hey you read the Wikipedia article and watched the documentary, too!
Click to expand...

I'd recommend anybody who wants to keep axolotls to watch it. Even if you already own some and just want to learn about their history. It gives great insight on what went wrong and why its not as easy as throwing a bunch back into the water.
 
I just read an article that states two wild axolotls have been spotted. They were not able to net them. Brightened my morning a little so I thought I would pass the info along:)
Not exactly the best article, but good news regardless:


MEXICO CITY (AP) — Mexico's salamander-like axolotl apparently hasn't disappeared from its only known natural habitat in Mexico City's few remaining lakes.

Researchers say they have sighted, but not caught, two of the slippery little creatures during a second effort to find them.

A weekslong effort last year by researchers in skiffs trying to net axolotls in the shallow, muddy waters of Xochimilco lake found none, raising fears that they might only now survive in captivity.

But biologist Armando Tovar Garza of Mexico's National Autonomous University said Friday that members of the team carrying out the search had seen two axolotls during the first three weeks of a second survey expected to conclude in April.

"We weren't able to capture them ... because the behavior of the axolotl makes them very difficult to capture," Tovar Garza said. "We haven't had any captures, but we have had two sightings. That's important, because it tells us we still have a chance."
 
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I'm more concerned as to whether anything is being done to protect/rehabilitate the natural habitat.
It's all well and good that there are probably a few out there, and that there are colonies of true wild types being maintained elsewhere, but without a valid habitat it's only a matter of time until they really are extinct in the wild.

Species (ex. California Condor) have been successfully reintroduced into the wild after being saved from a small population of remaining animals, but they had a valid habitat to return to.

Personally, I feel like even partial-axolotls in the pet trade are better than no axoltols, and support charities like Amphibian Ark that just try to preserve biodiversity however they can.
 
kjnorman said:
I'm more concerned as to whether anything is being done to protect/rehabilitate the natural habitat.
It's all well and good that there are probably a few out there, and that there are colonies of true wild types being maintained elsewhere, but without a valid habitat it's only a matter of time until they really are extinct in the wild.

Species (ex. California Condor) have been successfully reintroduced into the wild after being saved from a small population of remaining animals, but they had a valid habitat to return to.

Personally, I feel like even partial-axolotls in the pet trade are better than no axoltols, and support charities like Amphibian Ark that just try to preserve biodiversity however they can.
Click to expand...
Unfortunately its hard to fix the natural lakes when all that is left is a canal system that is part of mexico city. I think if it was possible to remove the larger aggressive fish, the axolotls would have a fighting chance to repopulate. Without lots of funding and very drastic clean up projects the axolotls will have a very hard time surviving.
 
Why not capture populations of all the species in lake xochimilco then drain the lake and as water lowers go around saving all the axolotls and native species we find as we let the lake lower and kill all the tilapia/carp/gamefish then clean all the polluted muck out and then at least partially refill the canals and then wait for the rest of the lake to fill with rain and runoff. We already drained lake chalco for our purposes so why not drain xochimilco for other animals.
 
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