I'm not sure what to do.

happycamper · Apr 24, 2014

I have three axolotls housed together. One female and two males. They are all related, there is a sister and brother and the father. Normally when they lay eggs I pull them out early enough to where I do not feel guilty, but these seem to be on day four of development and too far along for me to cull without a guilty conscience.

So I guess my questions are since they were conceived between family members are they going to be okay? To find homes through this website for axolotl eggs do I need a PayPal account or something?

HayleyK · Apr 24, 2014

Inbreeding is frowned upon in the human race, in dogs, cats, horses - everything.

If she does lay eggs I would euthanize them as soon as she lays. If you sell them, they might have severe problems with development and it will likely be an overall unhealthy axolotl that doesn't need to be shipped and sent to others to potentially breed..

Boomsloth · Apr 24, 2014

You really shouldn't be that worried. Axolotls come from a pretty small genetic pool to begin with. The ones raised in captivity were inbred and the result are all the colors and variations we have today. Even humans to an extent are inbred (why people from different regions look different). Yes inbreeding is frowned upon today but not even 100 years ago and first cousins were getting married. The genetic risks come from recessive defects that come out when there is no dominant gene to intervene. Axolotls are more tolerant of inbreeding then humans and yes, while 20 generations of inbred axolotls would be bad, one generation would not be the end of the world. I'm hoping to breed two of mine that are obviously siblings (from the same breeder), and since they both have an extra set of gills. If you don't want to raise them then dispose of the eggs, but otherwise you should not see any more defects then the average batch of eggs.

Boomsloth · Apr 24, 2014

hayleykahnita said:
Inbreeding is frowned upon in the human race, in dogs, cats, horses - everything.

If she does lay eggs I would euthanize them as soon as she lays. If you sell them, they might have severe problems with development and it will likely be an overall unhealthy axolotl that doesn't need to be shipped and sent to others to potentially breed..

All purebred dogs, cats, horses are inbred. Experienced breeders know that if one animal has a particular trait they want, they breed that and then often breed the offspring back to the parent. They can do sibling-sibling pairing but parent-offspring insures that the trait is now dominant in half the new offspring instead of just a fourth. Now the good breeders know to introduce unrelated animals into the lineage to prevent any defects, the bad breeders don't and thats where problems arise.

happycamper · Apr 24, 2014

hayleykahnita said:
Inbreeding is frowned upon in the human race, in dogs, cats, horses - everything.

If she does lay eggs I would euthanize them as soon as she lays. If you sell them, they might have severe problems with development and it will likely be an overall unhealthy axolotl that doesn't need to be shipped and sent to others to potentially breed..

I'm not sure if you actually read my post, she has already laid the eggs and they appear to be on day 4 of development.

happycamper · Apr 24, 2014

Boomsloth said:
You really shouldn't be that worried. Axolotls come from a pretty small genetic pool to begin with. The ones raised in captivity were inbred and the result are all the colors and variations we have today. Even humans to an extent are inbred (why people from different regions look different). Yes inbreeding is frowned upon today but not even 100 years ago and first cousins were getting married. The genetic risks come from recessive defects that come out when there is no dominant gene to intervene. Axolotls are more tolerant of inbreeding then humans and yes, while 20 generations of inbred axolotls would be bad, one generation would not be the end of the world. I'm hoping to breed two of mine that are obviously siblings (from the same breeder), and since they both have an extra set of gills. If you don't want to raise them then dispose of the eggs, but otherwise you should not see any more defects then the average batch of eggs.

Thanks for the reply. I'm not looking to make money off the eggs, just maybe have someone pay the shipping. I don't mind raising them but finding homes for that many axies locally would be hard, and obviously shipping eggs is way better then larvae. Maybe I'll post in the for sale section and just make sure to explain the situation,

Boomsloth · Apr 24, 2014

happycamper said:
Thanks for the reply. I'm not looking to make money off the eggs, just maybe have someone pay the shipping. I don't mind raising them but finding homes for that many axies locally would be hard, and obviously shipping eggs is way better then larvae. Maybe I'll post in the for sale section and just make sure to explain the situation,

That would be best. Just explain that its from a related pair and I'm sure someone will still take them. If you can't find anyone you can try local schools with science labs that are willing to take them in for learning purposes. It would be like the grow a tadpole kits.

auntiejude · Apr 25, 2014

You can freeze eggs up to day 5 - thats when they start to develop a nervous system.

Boomsloth · Apr 25, 2014

auntiejude said:
You can freeze eggs up to day 5 - thats when they start to develop a nervous system.

agreed.
it seems cruel but its better than if they don't find good homes. Also remember axolotls lay tons of eggs to combat their high infant mortality rate. The fact that some breeders on here can raise over 50% of their batch to adulthood and axolotls' reproductive drive is why there are so many in the pet trade.

You should really separate your female though, otherwise you'll keep having this problem if you don't get the eggs in time.

keiko · Apr 25, 2014

Boomsloth said:
You really shouldn't be that worried. Axolotls come from a pretty small genetic pool to begin with.

In my mind that is all the more reason to avoid inbreeding. As the gene pool is already very small, it is very irresponsible to make it even worse by inbreeding.

Ofcourse in this case it seems like it was an accident, but if I were you I would try to separate the female from the males. One batch of eggs won't make a big difference in the gene pool, but there might be problems with the babies health and development.

HayleyK · Apr 25, 2014

And purebred dogs seem to have the most problems. Keyword you used was experienced breeders... Just saying that if possible - it's best to avoid interbreeding IMHO.

Boomsloth · Apr 25, 2014

keiko said:
In my mind that is all the more reason to avoid inbreeding. As the gene pool is already very small, it is very irresponsible to make it even worse by inbreeding.

Oh no haha I was not promoting inbreeding! I'm just saying that inbreeding doesn't immediately lead to deformed animals and she shouldn't worry too much about this accident.

hayleykahnita said:
And purebred dogs seem to have the most problems. Keyword you used was experienced breeders... Just saying that if possible - it's best to avoid interbreeding IMHO.

Yeah dogs are the best example right now of why inbreeding is so bad. I was just trying to make her not feel as bad about the eggs. Every animal has different tolerances towards inbreeding and while axolotls have been inbred since their whole history, in science and the pet trade, they aren't going to fall apart because of a one time accidental inbreeding. That's not saying people should go around inbreeding their pets, just that this is not as big of a tragedy as many make it out. Now there will always be people who still inbreed to an extreme level and the animals are the only ones who suffer in the long run. Obviously the message for other owners is if you keep related individuals of opposite sexes together they will breed.

happycamper · Apr 25, 2014

Thanks for the input everyone. I'll check it out tomorrow and freeze them if I'm confident they are on day five. I'm definitely going to separate her, it's a bummer but I don't want to deal with this anymore.

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