Coudy tank issues round 3

I posted about this issue previously here:
http://www.caudata.org/forum/f46-be...trate/89973-cloudy-tank-issues-round-2-a.html

Its been almost a year now and I still have not been able to get the tank to clear up consistently. Things I have done in the past 12 months:

Replaced the filter
Broke down the entire tank, bought a new 10g, bleached all the decorations, and set everything back up again
Changed to a different brand of food pellets
Added a huge swath of Elodea to the tank
More frequent smaller water changes

Tank cloudiness has remained relatively unchanged in that time.

The only time I was able to get rid of the cloudiness was when I was away on vacation for a week; I shut off all heat to the apartment, and the axolotl did not get fed at all in that time. I came back and the tank was crystal clear. But it got cloudy as soon as I started feeding him again.

Also my friend had some axolotls from the same litter, and had the exact same problems.

In contrast, my sister has a female axolotl (my own's aunt), does much less tank upkeep than I, yet her tank remains crystal clear.

Maybe it has something to do with males? Still not sure.

Have you tried a UV sterilizer? They can run a bit pricey, but clear up a lot of of visibility issues if your problem is in the water column itself. I bought a $40 submersible unit on Amazon, and it will clear up any issues in my 40 gallon in a week or less. This is what I got. I pull it out when I'm not using it, and just pop it in if an issue arises. I have several large fish tanks, so it was worthwhile for me.
You could also try a superfine filter media that traps really small particle. Just make sure to clean it frequently til your problem clears up.

clawdate said:

I posted about this issue previously here:
http://www.caudata.org/forum/f46-be...trate/89973-cloudy-tank-issues-round-2-a.html

Its been almost a year now and I still have not been able to get the tank to clear up consistently. Things I have done in the past 12 months:

Replaced the filter
Broke down the entire tank, bought a new 10g, bleached all the decorations, and set everything back up again
Changed to a different brand of food pellets
Added a huge swath of Elodea to the tank
More frequent smaller water changes

Tank cloudiness has remained relatively unchanged in that time.

The only time I was able to get rid of the cloudiness was when I was away on vacation for a week; I shut off all heat to the apartment, and the axolotl did not get fed at all in that time. I came back and the tank was crystal clear. But it got cloudy as soon as I started feeding him again.

Also my friend had some axolotls from the same litter, and had the exact same problems.

In contrast, my sister has a female axolotl (my own's aunt), does much less tank upkeep than I, yet her tank remains crystal clear.

Maybe it has something to do with males? Still not sure.

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Your sisters' is the clear tank in your first thread? What are the parameters of your tank before your water changes?

You need to research how to properly cycle a tank so you understand why constantly changing the filter and washing everything down will lead to build up of ammonia as your tank has to recuperate all the beneficial bacteria it lost. You need to be testing your water because you don't seem to understand how to do water changes. I saw your parameters when you did tests of both tanks and its clear that you hadn't let the males tank properly cycle and the females is cycled but you let nitrates build up dangerously in that tank. If you are building up nitrates in the clear tank without cloudy water then its most likely ammonia build up in your tank. Yes you need to clean your tank of any waste and not let your filter just become filled, but you ALWAYS rinse the filter pad with TANK WATER never under tap or untreated water. I avoid those filters with the carbon cartridges since all you need is a place for the beneficial bacteria to colonize. Another thing is buy yourself some dechlorinater and stop using the brita filter. You accomplish next to nothing with that since it is the same as letting the water run through your aquarium filter (both are activated carbon if you noticed). also BRITA FILTERS DO NOT REMOVE CHLORAMINES! Essentially every water change you do you have been adding chlorine and ammonia.. killing off some of your good bacteria and adding ammonia. You keep going through a mini cycle which definitely can cause a bacterial bloom.

Try this:
-Go get dechlorinater (almost all remove chlorine/chloramines/heavy metals)

-Test your water and make sure the tank is completely cycled! (0ppm Ammonia/nitrite, under 40ppm nitrate)

-perform water changes with dechlorinater! Change as much needed to keep those levels. (If you have 100ppm nitrate you change 80% or 8 gallons to bring it down to 20ppm) any ammonia or nitrite requires immediate water changes.

-remove any waste from food or droppings and try not to rely on the filter to clean out everything, its main role is to provide a location for the beneficial bacteria colonies you need.

-The filter should be cleaned if it becomes noticeably dirty by rinsing it in a bucket with tank water. You want to keep as much bacteria as possible so a gently rinse is all.

I personally hate those carbon cartridge filters since they trick people into thinking that all you ever need to do is switch out the whole cartridge. If you can replace it with any filter sponge you will be better off because its a more stable home for the bacteria.
I've dealt with cloudy water in the past from the same mistakes you're making now. Its not as complicated as you're making it, and I know because I tried all the other methods you did before I realized what exactly I was doing. All my tanks are clear, I do my water changes as needed, and I spend almost no extra money or time on maintenance and water quality.

rachel1 said:

Have you tried a UV sterilizer? They can run a bit pricey, but clear up a lot of of visibility issues if your problem is in the water column itself. I bought a $40 submersible unit on Amazon, and it will clear up any issues in my 40 gallon in a week or less. This is what I got. I pull it out when I'm not using it, and just pop it in if an issue arises. I have several large fish tanks, so it was worthwhile for me.
You could also try a superfine filter media that traps really small particle. Just make sure to clean it frequently til your problem clears up.

Click to expand...

I think this cloudy water is more of a symptom rather than the problem. The UV will clear up the bacteria, which clears up the water but if it is as persistent as he claims, then I bet he has water quality issues.

Water changes are 1 gallon out, 1 gallon in, 10g sized tank filled about 3" from the top. I have been using DI water from my lab almost exclusively for several months now. Haven't used Brita filtered water in a while, but the results have been no different. Also I let the new tank cycle with the new filter for over a week before I put the axolotl in it. I have access to EPur water but thats probably overkill.

How often are you conducting water changes? What are your parameters? Are you testing these regularly?

Tanks do not cycle simply by leaving it for a week.

Boomsloth has given some great advice. I too would suggest reading up on tank cycling and would also suggest switching to dechlorinated tap water instead of DI water.

Boomsloth said:

I think this cloudy water is more of a symptom rather than the problem. The UV will clear up the bacteria, which clears up the water but if it is as persistent as he claims, then I bet he has water quality issues.

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Good point. I always assume everyone is starting from a healthy cycled tank, which is probably a mistake. :happy: I had some issues when I moved, and the water chemistry is a bit different than it was at my old house. It seemed like my tanks got a big dose of some nutrient that wasn't there before, and I had a bloom of green water in one and bacteria in another with lower light. The UV sterilizer cleared them both up, and it hasn't really been an issue since.

clawdate said:

Water changes are 1 gallon out, 1 gallon in, 10g sized tank filled about 3" from the top. I have been using DI water from my lab almost exclusively for several months now. Haven't used Brita filtered water in a while, but the results have been no different. Also I let the new tank cycle with the new filter for over a week before I put the axolotl in it. I have access to EPur water but thats probably overkill.

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That is not how to do water changes. Using DI water, as said above, will not provide any of the natural minerals your axolotl needs, but more importantly the bacteria need that as well. Also 1 gallon changes is not enough for a 10 gallon tank. You should be removing about 2-3 gallons weekly while performing a larger one monthly. If you read up on cycling you would know that its almost impossible to cycle a tank in a week. Even if you seeded the filter, it can take a few weeks, but since you said you cleaned everything down with bleach you would be waiting at least 3-4 weeks if not more. The fact that you're also using DI water would only slow the bacteria from colonizing.

The only water you need is tap water. You live in the US where all you have to do is use a dechlorinater, unless your water is that bad (which it shouldn't be) but you should be notified about that by whoever supplies your tap. Everything else you said is not suitable for aquarium life unless you are replacing the minerals that have been removed.
I know its tempting to use the lab, but you're overcomplicating a very simple thing. That clear tank that holds your sisters axolotl where your sister hasn't changed the water regularly looks better than yours because she has a cycled tank and isn't looking for fancy water to add in. Follow the advice and you won't have to keep posting about cloudy water.

I generally do a water change any time I see food waste in the tank, works out to be about every week at least.

I will work on dechlorinator and more testing supplies (ran out a while ago). Though I seem to remember the male's tank testing normal all through the last thread I made about it.

In the mean time, maybe you can clarify some things for me.

DI water is supposedly bad because it lacks minerals that the axolotl needs. Does anyone know what these minerals actually are, and in what amounts it needs? The pellets I am feeding contain whole animal & plant products; wouldn't these supply plenty of trace minerals? One of the issues I often face in the lab is getting rid of those kinds of contaminants, so the idea that just using DI water (actually its reverse osmosis water) will cause the tank to be completely devoid of minerals seems a little strange to me. I don't even use this water when I need "clean" materials, because between the plumbing and the sinks its assumed that this kind of stuff crops back up.

The tank has been in its current condition for at least 4 months. Wouldn't this be enough time for it to cycle? I am not clear how using DI water would slow down the process, again especially in light of the constant biological input of food pellets. Shouldn't there be more than enough minerals & nutrients in the tank? After all, there seem to be enough nutrients to cause a bloom in whatever bacteria is causing the cloudiness; this wouldn't also cause a bloom in the bacteria needed for cycling? And if it doesn't, wouldn't 4 months of normal tank operations be enough time for it to cycle?

You mentioned in your earlier post you left your tank to cycle for over a week with the new filter before adding the axolotl. However it takes much longer to cycle a tank than a week and without testing the parameters there is no way of telling that it was in fact cycled. Cycling also doesn't happen just by letting the tank sit there. Did you read up on cycling?

Are you leaving uneaten food pellets in the tank for a whole week? This will be adding to your bioload greatly and not helping your situation. Especially doing such small water changes. You should only be feeding the axolotl what he will eat within fifteen minutes and removing any uneaten food then, not a week later.

What pellets are you feeding?

Here is a link on the water. http://http://www.caudata.org/cc/articles/Spring_water."]http://[URL="http://http://www.caudata.org/cc/articles/Spring_water.shtml"]http://http://www.caudata.org/cc/articles/Spring_water.

I think you are making things far more complicated than it needs to be. I highly recommend following Boomsloth's great advice.

Feeding these pellets: Amazon.com : New Life Spectrum Large Fish Formula, Sinking Pellet Food 250g : Pet Food : Pet Supplies

I remove uneaten food as soon as I see it. I only feed about 5 pellets per day so most of it gets eaten pretty quick

Those pellets are designed for fish, not axolotls. They won't be nutritionally enough for them. I would suggest switching to earthworms or pellets specifically formulated for axolotls. Personally I would opt for earthworms. They are cheap (you can build your own earthworm farm), not messy and far more nutritional.

Those pellets are inappropriate? Interesting, they were recommended to me by a pet store manager who had several very good looking axolotls on display. Also, the Ambystoma Genetic Stock Center at University of Kentucky claims to have success using pellets designed for salmon. What nutrients are lacking in those pellets? Or do they have the wrong balance of nutrients? One of the first ingredients in them is whole krill, which is quite similar to what larval axolotls eat. That is not appropriate for adult axolotls? Thanks for the help.

clawdate said:

Those pellets are inappropriate? Interesting, they were recommended to me by a pet store manager who had several very good looking axolotls on display. Also, the Ambystoma Genetic Stock Center at University of Kentucky claims to have success using pellets designed for salmon. What nutrients are lacking in those pellets? Or do they have the wrong balance of nutrients? One of the first ingredients in them is whole krill, which is quite similar to what larval axolotls eat. That is not appropriate for adult axolotls? Thanks for the help.

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There is a lot of good advice in this thread regarding your questions. You seem to be over complicating things as this is rather basic. I would take the advice given and maybe spend some time reading the forum. Nonetheless, you have come to the right place.

Overcomplicating? I am just looking for clarification on the presumed mechanisms behind these basics.

I found a Holtfreter's recipe here that I was able to make in my lab. I am assuming its at 1x, made ~60g of it, should treat about 10g of DI/RO water. I did some simple scaling to make it easier to prepare and dispense (dry)

DI or RO water removed the minerals (ions) needed and the pellets would not restore all of the ions lost.

The Holtfreter's solution is a great way to increase water hardness and has been used for axolotls and other amphibians. However your axolotl has been living his life in really soft water, you need to very slowly introduce this solution or the water chemistry change might stress him out.

I ask again, What are the water parameters (ammonia/nitrite/nitrate/pH) currently before you do any water changes? If your tank is still not cycled (which we will only know if you post the parameters!) then you should hold off changing the water chemistry so drastically just yet.

This 40% solution you are suggesting has been used in axolotl labs to restore the minerals taken out when they purify the water, but they are also performing 100% water changes while still using dechlorinaters. They use this so that water chemistry is not a factor with experiments. Most others who use Holtfreters use it to prevent fungus from growing or live in an area with really soft or unsuitable water.

With your plan you would have to make sure that the molarity of each salt stays constant for every single water change. The molarity increases as water evaporates and you need to add water with the same molarity. I see you used 1 gallon again, 1 gallon is not enough for a water change in a 10 gallon tank, even if done daily you will still need to do large water changes monthly.

I'm going to ask why you still refuse to use dechlorinated tap water? I have access to a lab as well and can get as much DI water i'd like as well as a bunch of other stuff but still see that as unnecessary in proper axolotl husbandry. I have really been trying to explain and help you resolve your cloudy water issue but if you keep ignoring the simple advice I can't see your problems getting easier. There is a reason why so many people use tap water for almost all freshwater aquariums. It is easily accessible, reliably constant in parameters & mineral content, and will always be available if needed for an emergency water change. Why create more work by trying to mix up a Holtfreter's and having to go get DI water? People say you're overcomplicating it because you're not accepting the simple solution to your problem. If you even tried what I've been saying you should not have this constant cloudy water issue anymore.

I can help more if you post the current water parameters.

clawdate said:

Those pellets are inappropriate? Interesting, they were recommended to me by a pet store manager who had several very good looking axolotls on display. Also, the Ambystoma Genetic Stock Center at University of Kentucky claims to have success using pellets designed for salmon. What nutrients are lacking in those pellets? Or do they have the wrong balance of nutrients? One of the first ingredients in them is whole krill, which is quite similar to what larval axolotls eat. That is not appropriate for adult axolotls? Thanks for the help.

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Most pet stores know next to nothing about axolotls and their care requirements and frequently give out incorrect information. How long were those particular axolotls in the store for? I would bet that they had not been there long and their healthy looks were a result of the care given by the breeder the store acquired them from.

The pellets you are using are designed for fish including omnivorous and herbivorous. They do not have the right balance of nutrients required for axolotls and will be lacking in certain nutrients. They also contain a lot of plant material. Axolotls are carnivorous and won't benefit from all the plant material in the pellets. It is also good to remember that just like cats, dogs, humans and other species, axolotls have different nutritional requirements depending on what life stage they are at. Though I would not feed these pellets to any axolotl regardless of age. Switch to pellets specifically formulated for axolotls or better yet, switch to earthworms. Earthworms provide all the nutrition necessary and are not messy and very cheap (especially if you start up your own earthworm farm).

Ok freshwater test kit came in the mail, did a test on the current conditions.
pH:6.4-6.6
Ammonia:0-0.25ppm
Nitrite:0ppm
Nitrate:5ppm

If I recall correctly, this is basically the same readings I had in the previous thread from last year. I think those are all good readings, except for the pH. Also, the cloudiness really flared up over the past week.

Also got a bottle of Amquel and have 5 gallons tap water ready for use. I have already switched in one gallon of it a few days ago, though I saved some water samples from prior to that in the freezer for testing. Will test those later, but since the current readings are all almost near 0 I dont expect to see much.

Maybe some bicarbonate will help

I would recommend testing your water weekly to monitor it. It is good to see you are changing the water over to dechlorinated tap water. You may find that the cloudiness gets worse before it gets better. Keep going with dechlorinated tap water and see how it goes.

Snails are another issue thats cropping up. I checked the elodea before I brought it home, and had it growing outside the tank for a while, but of course I did not see snails until AFTER I put it in the tank. Now I have little ones growing. I remove all the ones I find but they must be multiplying because every day I find dozens more.

There also appear to be some very small flat worms mixed in, I've pulled a couple of those out too.