I have a dwarf! (I think)

My latest batch of babies has thrown out some odd individuals, including a dwarf. At least I'm convinced he's a dwarf, unless you guys have any other ideas.

The pictures below are of 'Billy' the suspected dwarf, and one for comparison with a sibling - both golden albinos hatched the same week. Billy doesn't have any front legs, and I'm not sure if this is a developmental problem or whether they have been chomped. I already have one of their siblings isolated because he was smaller than the rest and has lost 3 legs (I call him Stumpy). Billy is a decent size, and it's only just become apparrent that he is possibly a dwarf - at first I thought he was just rather plump, but his shape now indicates otherwise.

What do you guys think?

Looks plausible, he's very short I the body compared to his sibling. Bless him.

It also has an odd little kink along it's back. I think you are right that it has some sort of dwarfism.

Auntie,
Will you, if you could, get a side shot, please. I want to look at the head, angle of gills and torso. The top view tells me that the torso could be, but the shape of the gills makes me question if it is. I have two dwarfs (Pugalotls). They are both males. One GFP Golden, and one GFP Wildtype. I have watch these two closely for over a year now. They were originally pulled out of someone elses eggs. I was going to keep them as part of my brood stock, because they started out as very strong growers. I asked various questions and most people replied negietively to using them as breeders (not that I am suggesting that you will do so). My point is I am not totally convinced that this is a defect. Their appetites have been just as strong or even stronger than everyone elses. They are just as active if not more active. As they have grown in size and age they seem to be out growing their dwarfness in length, but the head shape with relations to the gills and the torso shape seem to still be noticeable (only if one knows that these were the original dwarfs.) Now I know a few people have problems with something 'new' in breeding lines of animals. I don't if one knows if the traits can be positive for the animal. Now I can hear the pundits ask me how do I know if the animal doesn't talk or something else that may be condemning. My answer......a 'good shepherd' knows his/hers animals and takes the best care of their stock.
The picture of your Golden Dwarf looks like it has some age to it. How old is it and what were your plans and what are your plans with it, if it is a Pug? if I may ask
Trace

Do you know what Willowcat - my axies won't sit still and follow simple instructions like 'turn to the side' and pose for photos! I have tried getting side-on shots of Billy but he's not exactly co-operative. I will try again tonigt for more photos.

When Billy hatched he had a definite kink in his spine, and we didn't know whether he would make it. It seemed to straighten out as he grew though, and we didn't think any more of it. He's now 4 months old, 4 inches, and his head appears to be the same size and shape as his siblings, as pictured, he's just short in the body. He eats well, he doesn't appear to be intimidtaed by others in his tank or bullied in any way.

I know he's not a 'normal' shape and size, but I wondered whether it is genetic dwarfism, or whether it's a developmental issue closer related to scoliosis of some kind. I'm not planning to breed from him anyway, so I guess it doesn't matter in the long run.

More pictures of Billy:

adorable! By the body shape & compactness, it looks like a dwarf to me.

Where's its front legs? I don't see them in any of the pictures.

Looks like a dwarf to me -Seth

Thank you for taking your time to post the side shots. I would say yes from what I can see. From the side view I follow the top of the head. It seems to go straight into the body, with no distinct definition. The pitch of the gills, slanted towards the back of the body. The torso seems not to be proportional to the length of the tail. Watching mine, it seems the tails grow to normal adult length. If the tail was impeded I think that the visual would not be there for people to label them as dwarfs. They would just be smaller or runts. I do not think that the word dwarf is proper. They are more 'stocky' than anything else. (my thoughts of the word dwarf is not directed at you or anyone else). Just my personal. After watching mine for over a year now I would put them up against any adult Axie in a wrestling match. The stocky people usually are built for strength. Like I had mentioned before, mine were pulled out with a couple of others because I was focusing on the fast, strong growth rates. I didn't notice the 'stockiness' until quite some time. It sounds that way for you also. 4 months into it, I think that you said? May I ask what was your reason, in the beginning for saving this one, strong grower? I would like to know if the parents that produced the Pugs, repeatedly do so, or is it open to any adult and random. Is it genetic or a result of years of inbreeding or what? Not to put a negative connotation on inbreeding. I would like to know if anyone as bred Pug adults? If so, do they produce Pugs? I just might have to go to the for sale section and post "Wanted"- a female Pug'...... it would be nice to get some truth instead guessing and hypos? Thanks again Auntie.....:happy:

I know that its not a good trait to have, but they're so adorable!!

This is the discussion I would like to have. How are we determining that this is not a good trait?

sde said:

Where's its front legs? I don't see them in any of the pictures.

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He doesn't have front legs at the moment, I don't know whether it's because they've been bitten off or it's developmental. Time will tell.

@Willowcat - he had a kink in his spine when he hatched, and we decided to see how he got on out of curiosity. He thrived, and the kink seemed to straighten out as he grew. But obviously it was a sign of this issue - I wish there was a way to find out whether it is developmental or genetic.
This is the first batch I have had from these parents, although the dad had 3 broods with another female without any obvious issues. I plan on breeding these 2 again at some point, I'll keep my eyes open for odd shapes.
FWIW the term 'dwarf' is an acceptable term (according to most disability groups) as it denotes a genetic condition, but the term 'midget' is considered derogatory.

As for whether it's acceptable to deliberately breed dwarfs, I know that many genetic dwarf animals don't live as long as thier regular sized siblings, but I would be more concerned about quality of life rather than length. Assuming they don't develop issues relating to the cramped thoracic cavity, can swim and feed well I can't see an ethical argument against breeding, unless the probelm is compounded with successive generations. But I will not be breeding from Billy.

willowcat said:

This is the discussion I would like to have. How are we determining that this is not a good trait?

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I just don't believe it would be a good trait to pass on (even though Jude said she wouldn't be breeding it) and like Jude also mentioned a possible reduced quality of life. I'm assuming
that if the axolotl is dwarfed or "compacted", then internally it is all not normal and may develop other internal problems. You may think otherwise but that is purely my opinion on dwarfed axolotls. Other people may think it's such a novelty and possibly breed them to produce $ off a genetic disorder.

Dwarfed if it is I see it as anything else born with the gene that carries the marker. Political correctness. Dwarf is frown on automatically caused people to think something not good. in the name now we say little person or little people. They get married have children live as normal as us. Just because something is born with the condition they grow and develope using what they have. Each species learns to adapt to. To them it is all they ever know . Every species has had offspring with differences then what the is the norm. If the offspring survives it has the the adjusted internal organs that allows it to functiorn like a nom affect off spring. Nature weeds out the weak . Since it has normal organ function everything going well it just is fine as is. If differances are in looks short mid section limbs fingers it will just have to maybe work harder in areas at times. Then others of same species. Just it does not know it. was just born that way knows nothing else. Little people little animals should be allowed to live as a normal sized axolotl. I would of did the same allowed it a chance to live. A life like it's siblingsr

ence

I think judging animals the same way as people is wrong, there are many things I would do to an animal ie barbecue it or take it for a walk on a lead which I would hesitate to do to a person, or only do in specific circumstances such as being stuck on a mountain after a plane crash or if its personal fetish of a new partner. I personally euthanise any deformed axolotl that crops up in my tanks, they are enough crappy ones about. There was even a clown on one of the fb groups who was asking about breeding a pair of dwarfs. I am surprised at the number of people who coo over "compact" axolotls and want to get them, its bad enough in the dog world with all those pedigree dogs who can't live a decade, inflicting the same kind of fate on axolotls can't be ethical. The fact that auntjudie is not going to breed this animal is responsible, I hope other people take note of this.

summer keldsen said:

Dwarf is frown on automatically caused people to think something not good. in the name now we say little person or little people. They get married have children live as normal as us. Just because something is born with the condition they grow and develope using what they have. Each species learns to adapt to. To them it is all they ever know . Every species has had offspring with differences then what the is the norm. Little people little animals should be allowed to live as a normal sized axolotl. I would of did the same allowed it a chance to live.

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Woah, hey no one brought up "little people" (which isn't really a nice name to call them anyway) nor did anyone else say that people who suffer dwarfism can't live normally.. (Wth?!)

I certainly did not say that dwarf axolotls shouldn't be alive, I just don't think it should breed when there are plenty of normal axolotls to breed with..

Just because some offspring survives with a genetic disorder in the present, it's highly unlikely that it's fine and that internally everything is "norm". It would be compacted, shortened - whatever. This can lead to organ failures, bloat or what not. I would be very suprised to see a drawfed axolotl live out the full lifespan of a normal axolotl.

I had a dwarf stout FBN hatch and it was the cutest thing ever ever ever... half the length!! Almost no belly space... but being a not normal baby, he didn't survive to the Eft stage, all the rest did.

I don't think that an animal should be euthanased purely because it is dwarf or has some sort of genetic mutation (as long as there is quality of life). But I would be concerned about whether breeding these genetic mutations is ethical or humane to these animals.

Personally I would not breed a dwarf axolotl. There could possibly be more severe mutation down the line resulting in more severe health issues. We have bred genetic mutations in dogs and cats resulting in new 'breeds'. The pug is a good example. They have constricted airways as a result of the way their head and nose are formed and often end up with respiratory problems as a result. Dachshunds are prone to back problems due to their tiny legs and long torso. I like pugs but we have to consider what we are doing to these animals just because we want to create certain looks in our pets.

I have an update on Billy - or should I say Billie! I'm pretty sure she's a girl. She's doing great, healthy appetite, looks bright-eyed and happy. She still doesn't have front legs, but has taken to either walking around on her back legs (think T rex!) or doing a jump-swim manoeuvre to get about.

I don't see how she COULD breed - there can't be enough space in her body for eggs, considering the size that her mother got to just before laying. Just to reiterate, I won't ever attemp to breed her - I don't want to encourage the genetic line, and I am worried that it could kill her. I am also worried that just the production of eggs could cause problems because of her short body, regardless of fertilisation or not.

@Skudo - we did a whole thread on ethics of breeding mutants and the general consensus was that a deformed animal should be allowed to live as long as it's otherwise healthy, but mutations of this type should not be deliberately bred in.

My male...Bambino......now about four and a half years old.....is a stocky, stumpy guy...and much shorter than his younger tank buddie. His front limbs have almost no length from shoulder to elbow...just stumps with feet rather than shapely legs!Interestingly he, and he is definatly all male, has never produced spermatophores so I wonder if he is actually infertile anyway