2 Dead Axies In 3 days!...

Hi guys!

I'm going to try and put in as much information as possible, so its going to be a long one..

I have been a member here for years but have never posted anything... until now!
I have (had ) 2 axolotls:
A Leucistic female, Grissom, 6/7 years old
A Wild type female, Toothless, 3/4 years old
Basically, both died within a few days of each other, with no obvious signs of illness or injury and obviously not from old age. I was wondering if anyone had any ideas as to what would have happened? Both me and my son were devestated! Toothless had had a few fungus infection when she was smaller, but was treated with fridging and salt baths (which I learned from this site!) and has been fine and healthy for a long time. Both were in seperate tanks until about 6 or so months ago when I decided to put them both in the same 4 foot long tank. They seemed to get on fine. Ignoring each other for the most part. Both fed on earthworms and axolotl pellets. Aquarium sand substrate.
So Saturday morning I went to do a typical part water change, took out some water, everything looked fine, no obvious signs of anyone being stressed or ill. I went to the local pet shop and got a new pump/air stone as the old one broke a long time ago and I was always meaning to get a replacement (this had nothing to do with their deaths, as you will see) When I got back home and was installing these, I went to move Grissom out of the way, but she was already gone. And I have no idea why!
I immediately removed toothless from the big tank and put her in one spare tank and filled up a second spare tank with clean water. I spent the next 24 hours emptying, scrubbing and refilling the 4 foot tank incase there was some sort of infection or disease there. Sunday, I took Toothless out the spare tank and into the second small tank of clean water while the big tank acclimatised and got a bit of a cycle going ( I know I should have waited longer, but I thought better to be in clean water than possible infected water?) She looked fine in there, walked around, had a bowel movement and so on. Tuesday afternoon, I moved her back into the big tank (I know, still probably should have, and usually do, waited longer, but I doubt being put into clean, treated water would kill almost instantly?) Tuesday night, had a look to see how she was doing... Dead aswell!
I have no idea whats happened, as I say, there was no obvious signs of illness, stress, injury, or anything that I would have been concerned about.
Does anyone have ANY ideas as to what could have caused this? It has been an upsetting few days and I would really like to be able to find out some answers.

Thanks in advance for any help!!
Sammy

I am sorry for your loss.

I am not sure I can really offer any answers to why they passed away. Did you by chance test the water parameters when you noticed Grissom had passed?

Thanks.

I didn't even check, I just got stuck right into emptying and cleaning to try and make sure Toothless was ok. Which didn't work anyway.
I've never had any problems with water parameters before, so it wasn't something that immediately jumped to mind. Surely if it was the water they would have shown some signs of stress or something?

Testing parameters is always a good start to finding the problem as it at least rules out any issues there but it doesn't sound like that was the problem. Could it have been possible the water was contaminated somehow? With an aerosol used nearby or something like that? Was there anything else that may have changed before they passed away?

Terribly sorry for your loss but judging by the timing of your first water change and then by putting new waters there might be an issue with your water being put in.


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Thanks for your replys!

Skudo09 said:

Could it have been possible the water was contaminated somehow? With an aerosol used nearby or something like that? Was there anything else that may have changed before they passed away?

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The tank has a plastic condensation tray and a hood, so nothing can get in really. And no aerosols get sprayed in the house (my fiance is allergic to almost everything!) I can't think of anything else that had changed recently, other than Toothless joining Grissom in the big tank. and I added in a new hidey-hole as there was only one. But that was months ago! Their food hasn't changed (I have always dug worms up from my own back garden, I don't use any pesticides or anything, its just grass and mud)

Boomsloth said:

Terribly sorry for your loss but judging by the timing of your first water change and then by putting new waters there might be an issue with your water being put in.

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I never actually got round to adding more water in during the water change. I took the water out in preparation. Grissom died sometime between taking the water out and putting in the new pump. No new water was added yet.

It's such a mystery! The only other thing that I can think of is that perhaps a recent feeding of garden worms was contaminated. Do you live near any neighbors or commercial buildings, etc?
Too bad we don't know the exact water parameters before the water change occurred. It is possible that water quality was toxic for a time (sometimes stress is not that obvious. Especially if you are not too familiar with identifying it).
It's really hard to say.
I am sorry for your loss.

Do you know what the temperature was like ? Been pretty warm were I am could be something related?

Sorry for your loss

Bette said:

The only other thing that I can think of is that perhaps a recent feeding of garden worms was contaminated. Do you live near any neighbors or commercial buildings, etc?

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Both neighbours on either side have big gardens like mine; grass and mud. Nothing fancy that would require pesticides or, I dunno, gardening products? .

Connor said:

Do you know what the temperature was like ? Been pretty warm were I am could be something related?

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It has been pretty warm here too. But its been warmer. They survived last years "heatwave" when I was away and not around to cool their water down.

Sorry guys, I feel like I'm just shooting down everyones suggestions here after I'm the one that asked for them. Thats not the case at all!! There has obviously been something that's gone wrong somewhere. And I am very grateful for everyones opinions! Any of these things could have been what's gone wrong, I just wish there was a way of actually finding out what it was.

I really appreciate all your help and suggestions! :happy:

Sorry to hear your sad news.

To cause such a problem so quickly sounds like it could be a contaminant from your hands or the vessels you used for the water change.

Any hand creams, body lotions, new meds for you? Had your hands or arms anywhere unpleasant just before the water change?

Has anyone used your water change bucket for anything else? Any other pets that could have got in to the bucket, urinated in it etc?

It could well be a crashed cycle or poor water conditions, entirely possible, but it sounds to me like you are quite vigilant and I think you would have noticed some unusual behaviour rather than your axies just giving up, so exploring other options is good.

The other thing to consider is toxic hydrogen sulphide gasses building up in the sand which you released when you did the water change. Fine sands need a lot of swooshing around, ornaments moved about etc on a regular basis to stop toxic pockets - possible?

Really sorry though, you must be terribly upset

mewsie said:

Sorry to hear your sad news.

To cause such a problem so quickly sounds like it could be a contaminant from your hands or the vessels you used for the water change.

Any hand creams, body lotions, new meds for you? Had your hands or arms anywhere unpleasant just before the water change?

Has anyone used your water change bucket for anything else? Any other pets that could have got in to the bucket, urinated in it etc?

It could well be a crashed cycle or poor water conditions, entirely possible, but it sounds to me like you are quite vigilant and I think you would have noticed some unusual behaviour rather than your axies just giving up, so exploring other options is good.

The other thing to consider is toxic hydrogen sulphide gasses building up in the sand which you released when you did the water change. Fine sands need a lot of swooshing around, ornaments moved about etc on a regular basis to stop toxic pockets - possible?

Really sorry though, you must be terribly upset

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Hi.
Thanks for your reply!
Hands creams and body lotions etc... I can't say for definite that it wasn't that. (I may have done it without even realising) But I can say that before having kept axolotls for almost 7 years, I kept tropical fish for numerous years, so I'm aware of not putting your hands in the water if there is stuff on them.

For the buckets and water changing equipment, I have 2 boys at home, so everything axolotl related is kept out the way and used solely for them to avoid contamination both ways!
(Edit: I just thought of something after typing all this up.... We had mice a few months back. Do you think if they had gotten in and around all the axie equipment it could have caused this?!)

The gas build up actually sounds like it could be something thats gone wrong... with the 2 of them being in the same tank, maybe its built up quicker? It wasn't even something I thought of

sammy said:

Hi.
Thanks for your reply!
Hands creams and body lotions etc... I can't say for definite that it wasn't that. (I may have done it without even realising) But I can say that before having kept axolotls for almost 7 years, I kept tropical fish for numerous years, so I'm aware of not putting your hands in the water if there is stuff on them.

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See this is what makes it tricky some times! When you are so used to doing something right for so long, you start racking your brains for something that could have gone wrong - and it could have been so very many things It just seems to me that after 7 years, you probably would have noticed a change in appearance or behaviour ahead f time if it was water conditions or temperature. Don't rule those things out though!

(Edit: I just thought of something after typing all this up.... We had mice a few months back. Do you think if they had gotten in and around all the axie equipment it could have caused this?!)

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Could be, could be! Were they in the same space as your kit?

The gas build up actually sounds like it could be something thats gone wrong... with the 2 of them being in the same tank, maybe its built up quicker? It wasn't even something I thought of

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Could well be, but typically toxic sand goes black and horrid when it's stagnating so you may have noticed that too! It's not so much the number of critters in the space, but the fact that oxygen isn't reaching parts of the sand, usually because it's thick and not stirred often, or because a large ornament or pump sits on it for long periods.

mewsie said:

Could be, could be! Were they in the same space as your kit

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Yup, in the kitchen. If they can make their way into my house, I'm sure they could have found their way into the axie supplies!

mewsie said:

Could well be, but typically toxic sand goes black and horrid when it's stagnating so you may have noticed that too! It's not so much the number of critters in the space, but the fact that oxygen isn't reaching parts of the sand, usually because it's thick and not stirred often, or because a large ornament or pump sits on it for long periods.

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After Grissom had gone and I was cleaning the whole tank out, I never noticed the sand being dark or stagnant looking, but I did notice that the water was much more smelly than usual. I just put that down to there being 2 axies and twice the waste. So the smell could have been a gas build up?

That could explain Grissom, but why would it take an extra 3 days to kill Toothless, especially if he was put into clean water, would it still be lingering in his system and maybe got to Grissom first cos she was a bit older?

When we stayed in Blair Atholl a while ago....massive problem when sewage got into drinking water supply due to piping error....quite drastic but perhaps something was briefly in your water supply which caused the problem. Not wishing to deride Scottish Water in any way