Keeping very rare salamnder with govt. support

Hey, a lot of fish keepers wanted to use their expertise to keep rare fish AND help out declining fish species and this is how they do it.

C.A.R.E.S Preservation Program

They state: The purpose of the CARES Preservation Program is to create a base stock of conservation priority species through encouraging hobbyists worldwide to devote tank space to one or more species at risk and distribute offspring to fellow qualified hobbyists, while forming an information network between aquarists, scientists, and conservationists.

Can you imagine if keepers in the UK were allowed to raise native salamanders and ship them to the US as pets in this way. Or people raising Notos or Ambystoma and shipping them as pets to UK. All those rare Axolotl types are not going to breed themselves back into existence ya know.

What do you people think?

I would be very happy to take on some rare Ambystoma, as long as I have access to specialist advice. Some of the lesser known species are beautiful.

Breeding is another matter though, unless people have space to raise clutches of eggs on a large scale it could be difficult.

Well the way fish keepers do it is not to re-populate or breed huge numbers. It's more like these rare types are raised to ensure the species continues and is available to hobbyists who would otherwise buy wild caught specimens. This pool of specimens could provide zoo's and public aquariums with breeding stock. Lake Victoria cichlid fish have been the main focus of these types of programs but now I see all kinds of catfish and livebearers.

I have a number of newts which are now declared vulnerable but it is unlikely that their situation in the wild will get better. Once matured I intend to breed and distribute their offspring, I just have to hope I get at least one pair!

It might be interesting from a hobby perspective, but it really does not help preserve biodiversity in any way.

herpguy said:

It might be interesting from a hobby perspective, but it really does not help preserve biodiversity in any way.

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I think if done in the right way it would be very successful. But, it would require a lot of planning beforehand and they would have to go to people that were really interested in preserving the species, not people who are in it for a profit.

Stuart

I'm not sure releasing captive stocks would be very successful. Usually you want to release F1 or F2 stocks, not ones that have been in captivity for multiple generations and unless the reasons are addressed that caused the decline, there is little point. However, I think it's a great idea to ensure the lines continue to be available for future generations and a stud book of sorts to trace lineage would be useful. It would be good for inbreds stocks to be outcrossed with another member of similar origin, but even more importantly it would useful to avoid inappropriate outcrossing of wide ranging species.

I'm currently mainly keeping fish and am very involved with the CARES program. Which is one reason I am interested in breeding my axolotls, I even have an F3 outbreed male that I aquired from a friend who works with the laboratories. I think a similar program for amphibians would be a rather good idea, especially considering the increasing threat that is affecting many species.

Goodeid said:

I'm currently mainly keeping fish and am very involved with the CARES program. Which is one reason I am interested in breeding my axolotls, I even have an F3 outbreed male that I aquired from a friend who works with the laboratories. I think a similar program for amphibians would be a rather good idea, especially considering the increasing threat that is affecting many species.

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The problem with doing this with axolotls is that what we have in captivity are not true axolotls - axolotls were crossed with tiger salamanders to get the gold albino and albino colouration - and so there isn't much point in using these animals for conservation.
Besides, axolotls are one of the most widely bred species of amphibian in captivity so there's no need for something like CARES for them.
However, you make a very good point that a programme like this could be a good idea, with the correct planning.

Stuart

I think Goodied meant threatened amphibians in general rather than axolotls specifically, Stuart. There is a conservation programme called Amphibian arc that collects and breeds endangered frogs, mostly from areas where fungal outbreaks are wiping them out. I don't know of a similar effort for salamanders, though.

The threats against all animals cannot really be mitigated effectively right now because of the increasing population and resulting habitat destruction for housing and resources. I think it will be difficult to get more than lip service in the near future and the ongoing decline of an amazing variety of species seems to prove this point. We are losing the battle at an ever increasing pace as the population grows. By the time we reach carrying capacity, the loses will have been horrific. I think captive populations are welcome, even if not an ideal, way of showing future generations what has been lost and why we must do better in the future.

I like the idea. I just want to note that even common easy to breed species like danubes and iberians are being ridiculously inbred.

Stupot1610 said:

The problem with doing this with axolotls is that what we have in captivity are not true axolotls - axolotls were crossed with tiger salamanders to get the gold albino and albino colouration - and so there isn't much point in using these animals for conservation.
Stuart

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There aren't necessary a lot of tiger genes in the axolotl gene pool.
In fact, 1 individual tiger was (painfully) crossed with an axolotl, and the following generations were mixed with the whole captive axolotl population in the 60th.

With the same logic, do you mean there isn't much point in protecting american buffalo because of the following informations?
Iconic American Buffalo are Actually Part Cow | Smart News | Smithsonian

That's one of the reasons hobbyist's animals are of little use for conservation, Another is lack of locality data. At the moment. It seems people will inbreed and/or line breed without giving it a moments thought and they get away with it mostly, as many captive bloodlines are still not that far removed from their WC ancestors. I think it will start to become a bigger problem over the coming years though, so unless we can come up with a plan to be a bit more methodical and maybe start keeping records and stud books things can only get worse in my view.

JM29 said:

There aren't necessary a lot of tiger genes in the axolotl gene pool.
In fact, 1 individual tiger was (painfully) crossed with an axolotl, and the following generations were mixed with the whole captive axolotl population in the 60th.

With the same logic, do you mean there isn't much point in protecting american buffalo because of the following informations?
Iconic American Buffalo are Actually Part Cow | Smart News | Smithsonian

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That's true, there aren't a lot. But there will be some, meaning that they are not 'pure' axolotl, as some of the colour morphs are not naturally occurring in the wild.

I see your point about the buffalo. But, with axolotls I just don't see the point in returning to the wild animals that are not the same as the original populations. Though if the animals were just like the wild ones then it wouldn't be such a big issue, for example if wild ones were bred and not crossed with captive axolotls then that would be ok. I suppose even if they were bred with captive bred ones with similar genetics, i.e. not producing the morphs that have been created in captivity, then that would be that big of an issue either.
Although, clearly, I am no expert but this is part of the way I see the situation.

Stuart

If their providing a stud book and locality documentation program then their removing most of the problems with captive bred conservation.

In fish keeping some species that were degenerated by inbreeding and lack of natural selection were restored to where you couldn't tell the difference them and their wild holotype by introducing a single line of animals from another inbred, but uncontacted, strain.

If you had a stud book service to see all of an animal's hereditary background and a service to connect you to people with different lines of descent (kept by an impartial third party) then many fast breeding animals (fish, amphibians, most reptiles) then they should remain viable for quite sometime in captivity.

Just require people to document they were actually bred by you (not just selling animals you got somewhere else) by taking a picture of the eggs or babies with something identifying it as your tank (like your drivers license or something), send in the pics and which animals bred and they can update the data bank to include your new batch. If someone with a different batch want's some they can contact each other by searching the data bank.

A stud book makes so much sense to me. Even if some recessive disorder is not found, I just don't want to inbreed animals if there is any possible way to avoid it. The time to set it up is while WC animals are still available so that when new stock can no longer be obtained, we know the history of the individuals in question. I don't know if it would be hard to get people to register their animals or raise awareness, but I wonder if Caudata.org would be up for hosting such a thing for salamanders? We have quite a few breeders on here and likely new breeders will hit this website sooner or later. I realize this is only a small fraction of the animals being pumped out there but you have to start somewhere, right?